MB SID V2 discussion?

[Wilba]

Well it's nice to know you've really explored (and exhausted) all options. Kudos to you for giving as much time and effort in trying to fix the infamous envelope bug.

[ganchan]

That's no vocoder!

A vocoder sounds similar, but is an effect where, for example, a human vocal is mixed* with a synthesised tone.

That MP3 is synthesised speech - no human voice involved :)

*Edit: I don't mean mixed as in VCA mixed, but you can google it and find out how it's done ;)

:D

sorry, you're totally right!

[timofonic]

I'm sorry to annoy with unimportant in this very interesting conversation about the future of MBSID (I can understand hardly a portion of the conversation, but the understood stuff is very interesting too), but what about playing oldie C64' SID files and even those that run only on SID emulators? Any future open-source app sending the file by MIDI for not needing to using closed-source stuff that only will run on Bill Gates' OS?

This is not important, better still fight first with that evil envelope bug first until the last round and even more (with the help of other people's ideas and tech knowedge too), just a thing for the TODO list in the long future ;)

Back to on topic:

Maybe it's a stupid idea, but what about sharing the work between other SID? This could double the amount of SIDs for the same work, but maybe reducing lag. Yes, I'm stupid, but who knows...

So the last solution can be emulating some SID stuff on the PIC (my brain is collapsed now, I need to use it more)?  ???

[Jaicen]

Actually, I think that's a good idea. If you have 8580's for example, you could alternate rapid key presses between the two chips, thus allowing twice as long to clear the registers. Sounds good to me, but i'm sure there's a reason it hasn't already been done!

[Wilba]

I'm sorry to annoy with unimportant in this very interesting conversation about the future of MBSID (I can understand hardly a portion of the conversation, but the understood stuff is very interesting too), but what about playing oldie C64' SID files and even those that run only on SID emulators? Any future open-source app sending the file by MIDI for not needing to using closed-source stuff that only will run on Bill Gates' OS?

This has already been done... sidplayer_v1b.zip is firmware that uses the same protocol that the SidStation uses to play SID files, so you can use the ASID player (on a PC) to play SID files through your MB-SID setup. While it would be a nice thing to have this protocol in MB-SID v2 (so you don't need to swap firmware), I'd prefer that memory used for synth features.

On a related topic: TK, could the current sidplayer app route the incoming SysEx messages to the slave PICs (in a 2+ SID setup) and thus play SID files in stereo? I'm suspecting it would be just a one line change, but I'm not able to try it out at the moment.

[timofonic]

This has already been done... sidplayer_v1b.zip is firmware that uses the same protocol that the SidStation uses to play SID files, so you can use the ASID player (on a PC) to play SID files through your MB-SID setup. While it would be a nice thing to have this protocol in MB-SID v2 (so you don't need to swap firmware), I'd prefer that memory used for synth features.

You didn't readed what I writed...

; This MIOS applications interprets the SIDstation "ASID" protocol and 

; forwards the requested register changes to a MBHP_SID module

;

; compatible with the ASID player and SIDPLAY/Windows

; -> http://www.d.kth.se/~d93-alo/c64/spw/sidplayw.html

; -> http://www.sidstation.com/sidsupport.php

;

; based on http://sammal.ton.tut.fi/~paulus/asid_protocol.txt

; by Jouni Paulus (jobe(a)iki.fi)

;

; The biggest collection of SID files can be found here:

; http://www.hvsc.c64.org/

http://sourceforge.net/docman/?group_id=9266

From the SIDplayer thread:

; This MIOS applications interprets the SIDstation "ASID" protocol and 

; forwards the requested register changes to a MBHP_SID module

;

; compatible with the ASID player and SIDPLAY/Windows

; -> http://www.d.kth.se/~d93-alo/c64/spw/sidplayw.html

; -> http://www.sidstation.com/sidsupport.php

;

; based on http://sammal.ton.tut.fi/~paulus/asid_protocol.txt

; by Jouni Paulus (jobe(a)iki.fi)

;

; The biggest collection of SID files can be found here:

; http://www.hvsc.c64.org/

Maybe you've overseen that the MBSID Sidplayer gets use of the SIDstation protocol, that the support for this protocol is a propratary extension of SIDPLAY1, and that the source code of this version is not available.

Do you expect that somebody develops a new SIDPLAYer based on your wishes? Then please say this clearly (so that I can say clearly that I've no interest in spending any more effort for this toy - maybe somebody else?)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

As you can see, and even in words of TK, there are not open source implementation of an app that communicates using the ASID protocol.

There are specs and an open-source implementation on hardware side (MIDIBOX SID ;)), but not on client side.

I hope an ASID implementation can be implemented into Sidplay2 some day, the project is STILL alive ;)

[mattias]

This V2 SID looks like its gonna be great! I think the SID synt is going to be the fatest synth in my rack. Goot a MS2000r and an FS1R to match it to. From the look of it I think the SID V2 will kick som ass.. This news inspired me to start working on my synth and plan for V2. Thanks TK...

Now I just gotta get my kit going. And i have some questions, since V2 is comming soon... Now might be a good time to start planning for an update. I am building my SID synth as a 1u rack unit step B controller, I hope i still get all the new features or do I need a full controller?

The PIC seems to be avilable as free sample?? But wich of them should I get??

http://www.microchip.com/stellent/idcplg?IdcService=SS_GET_PAGE&nodeId=1953&device=en010304

Maybe smashTV could start selling the PIC 18F460 so we newbeis could get it whit mios?

And for Bankstiks is there a change recomended or can we still stick to the old ones?

When will we se a beta or are you going for a final release?

Thanks a million TK..

[stryd_one]

This V2 SID looks like its gonna be great! I think the SID synt is going to be the fatest synth in my rack. Goot a MS2000r and an FS1R to match it to.

Wanna sell that fs1r? ;) hehehe

I am building my SID synth as a 1u rack unit step B controller, I hope i still get all the new features or do I need a full controller?

I'm in the same boat. I think it's a fair assumption based on TK's style of coding that the synth will work independently of the control surface, but of course TK is the one to answer that. I was just going to wait until it was out and ask, but seeing as it's out there... ;)

The PIC seems to be avilable as free sample?? But wich of them should I get??

None. Buy one you cheapskate! You spent all that money on SIDs, so obviously you knew it was not a free synth ::)

Show Microchip the respect they deserve... Then again... they ignored TK for so long with the EUSART bug he found, maybe they deserve to be ripped off by hordes of DIY nutters ;)

But keep this in mind - if too many people order samples they might stop making them available - it happened with the 452 for a while.... If you've got the money for 8 SIDs I think you should be able to find the money for the PICs you need to drive them, and if you couldn't afford the PICs you probably shouldn't have started a project you didn't have the resources to complete.

Anyway you'll probably ignore me so I might as well answer your question and tell you you need the ones that end in ' - I/P' ;) The PIC18LF is the low voltage version of the PIC18F and is also suitable.

[mattias]

I would by my PICs today IF I  could get the new one rev.B4, without the bug. Check LATEST NEWS!!!

So, PIC18F4620: according to a recently published errata sheet (http://ww1.microchip.com/downloads/en/DeviceDoc/80282a.pdf), Microchip has finally released a new B4 silicon, where the EUSART bug is fixed. These are really good news for all future MIDIbox projects, because this means that in some months PICs will be available where the MBHP_IIC_MIDI module won't be required as a workaround solution for a reliable MIDI Out port anymore!

And I dont think I am selling my FS1R. Just started to get into the formatsequensing thing thsanks to some soft I found on the web. But if you want one there seems to be one up for grabs here.

::)

http://www.bangiel.substracta.com/music.html

///Mattias

[stryd_one]

No need to shout, I'm right here. (Plus you may have noticed I replied to that post, so I'm aware of the news :) )

Yeh but you don't need to buy it now, the application isn't released yet... Plus there's no guarantee that the sample will be the new rev.

Hehehe I wasn't serious about buying your fs1r, just kinda saying that they're nice :)

[mattias]

Sorry!!

Somtimes I am just to quick!! :-\

[stryd_one]

I understand .... If you weren't excited about getting it built as soon as possible, there might be something wrong with you ;) hehehe

It's sure shaping up to be something special!

[TK.]

As stated in the wishlist, a first release cannot be expected before next year, some other projects should be finished before.

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[mattias]

Ok.. Thats still super!

Any way how do we conect the second sid to the core. Just intressted since I am planning now for an uppgrade to V2. My plan is two fitt 2 6581:s and two 8580:s to two cores. Anything to take in to consideration, special parts neded etc....

Got some soldering done today by the way and picked upp my second 8580!!!! ;D

[TK.]

All serial connections from MBHP_SID::J2 1:1 to MBHP_CORE::J10, only CS# has to be connected to a seperate pin of the core (propably MBHP_CORE::J14) - thats all. By connecting the CS# line of the second SID together with the CS# line of the first SID, you are already able to play both SIDs the same time (with the same parameters...)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[mattias]

Ok !!

In V2.0 will it be possible to have the SID:s from one core on separate midi channels and differnt parameters?

My korg MS2000r has a mod sequenser. Check here ...

http://www.korguksupport.co.uk/upload/MS2000_R_OM2.pdf

Maybe a nice feature for the sid.. Or something like it?

[TK.]

Please read the wishlist, it's everything in there!

Best Regards, Thorsten.,

[mattias]

:-X

Stupid of me!! It is the multimode.

One thing that would be nice is patch combability whith SIDstation in V 2.0 but thats not a must have.

[Slorrin]

Will the SID 2.0 have a core on the same board?  I mean, there is that guy who made the CORE + SID boards himself.  But it would be really nice to have a single board, rather than fiddle around with the totally modular design.  You can't use the sid module without the core module, so it's not as though it's a waste to put them together.

I am at work, so if this has been answered, i haven't had time to search the thread to find it.. it's 7 pages long!

[TK.]

In my oppinion it makes sense to talk about a single board solution again after the first release. Who knows what will change until then... as mentioned several times before: I can only guarantee, that with the modular concept you will have the highest flexibility.

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[c0nsumer]

Will the SID 2.0 have a core on the same board?  I mean, there is that guy who made the CORE + SID boards himself.  But it would be really nice to have a single board, rather than fiddle around with the totally modular design.  You can't use the sid module without the core module, so it's not as though it's a waste to put them together.

I'm not sure if you're talking about my boards or not. If you aren't, you might want to take a look here at the project I've been working on. It's a single-PCB MIDIbox SID, and all documentation you need to acquire some of these boards for yourself can be found there. As V2 isn't ready I can't say they are compatible with it, but they sure work great with v1.7303a.

(I may redo them, or do something similar for V2... Not sure yet.)

-Steve

[Wilba]

I love the modular concept of MIDIbox, and I've already done a "modular" MB-SID with four SIDs. For MB-SID v2, I was motivated to make a single board solution because I really love laying out PCBs, and it would be much smaller than a modular solution (i.e. removing redundant shift registers from SID modules, components from Core modules, etc.). So I'm making a single MIDIbox PCB so I can squeeze four PICs and eight SIDs into a case that's about two-thirds the size of a C64 "breadbox".

But since an MB-SID can have a lot of combinations of display sizes and control surface designs, there can never be one single PCB that suits all people, for some, it will have too many "modules", for others, not enough, and since most of the reason for doing a single PCB is to optimize the space and make it a certain size to fit a case, then there's never going to be one size that suits everyone.

So my advice is make your own single PCB if that's what you really want, but if you've got heaps of room in your intended case just buy the ones from SmashTV since once the case is closed, you can't tell the difference  ;D

[cheater]

But since an MB-SID can have a lot of combinations of display sizes and control surface designs, there can never be one single PCB that suits all people, for some, it will have too many "modules", for others, not enough, and since most of the reason for doing a single PCB is to optimize the space and make it a certain size to fit a case, then there's never going to be one size that suits everyone.

Perhaps making a saw-off design could work: Don't need 2 of the 4 sids? Just saw them off..

Just an idea that could make producing that stuff cheaper :)

Question is:

scenario 1: you buy a Core and two MB SID modules.

scenario 2: you buy a Core+4xSID module which has been produced in larger quantities, then saw a part off that you don't need.

Which is cheaper?

I don't think anyone could get scenario 2 to such a large scale that you could weight out the cost of the bigger, after all, board.

Just some thoughts.

Cheers

[c0nsumer]

Perhaps making a saw-off design could work: Don't need 2 of the 4 sids? Just saw them off..

Just an idea that could make producing that stuff cheaper :)

Question is:

scenario 1: you buy a Core and two MB SID modules.

scenario 2: you buy a Core+4xSID module which has been produced in larger quantities, then saw a part off that you don't need.

Which is cheaper?

I don't think anyone could get scenario 2 to such a large scale that you could weight out the cost of the bigger, after all, board.

In laying out something with a specific saw-off area one will waste a good bit of space, because it requires that the saw-off area contains only optional parts. In my opinion it would be better to have a more tightly packed board where one can just leave off the optional components.

I'd happily look into laying it out once V2 is a bit more nailed down, although I may not have the software to do the layout. (Non-profit Eagle is limited to 160mm x 100mm.) I'll cover that later, though...

-Steve

[mattias]

Since NRPNs will be used instead of CCs, can you still use CCs from the SID CC implementation chart?