Audio Interface and workflow?

[chriss]

Hello all

i have some trouble finding out what the best solution for me concerning my studio setup.

I have about 16-20 analog Audio sources, a MIDIBOX SEQ and a MIDIBOX USB2MIDI Interface. One ibook G4 and a MIDIBOX LC is planned.

If it´s possible i would like to have them all at the same time and in realtime (no samples) in my music software.

For that i am thinking about a good FW interface (RME or echo) and control the mixer of my music software with a MIDIBOX LC.

Another solution would be a digital mixing console like the behringer DDX3216 and an ADAT FW interface, the advantage would be that i can mix more channels and maybe a better performance concerning realtime processing. Disadvantage is the pour soundquality of behringer.

I just have no experience in that and want to find a good solution in the beginning.

So what do you think about common workflows for one man sleeping room studios. How do you get your analog sources into the computer or how do you process them?

chriss

[Screaming_Rabbit]

... I would go for RME (good performance/price ratio)

If you like it better:

RME MADI PCI card with STUDER D21m

http://www.studer.ch/pdf/flyers/(1)%20D21m%20Brochure%20(09-11-05)hr.pdf

... you can add additional cards in the future of what ever format you like.

Greets, Roger

[audiocommander]

Nothing for an iBook, but I'm quite pleased with my M-Audio Delta 10 card (G5). The driver supports multiple Delta-cards, so I think you can chain up to four of them ;D

I'm currently searching for a Firewire Interface and I have to warn you about that super-cheap Hercules 16/12 FW Interface (~260 EUR). The first one I got was damaged (no LEDs), the second one caused (reproduceable!) severe Kernel Panics on both my G5 and G4 PowerBook while uploading SysEx-Messages (at once) and by good MIDI-Traffic (after 2 to 3 hours). The driver and support for Macintosh is real crap. Dunno if it's better on Win. Save your bucks for this and spend a bit more on quality products...

I'll report my decision next week, when I return the Hercules Interface (if I don't forget ;) )

Michael

[stryd_one]

I've got an Echo and RME card and a DDX...

Personally, I'd get rid of the PC and go with the DDX.

If you don't like the behry converters, use RME's.

Of course this is really about budget... I mean you could go with a RME converters attached to the DDX as an interface to the MADI card (IE get both). Keep in mind that an RME Adat converter costs more than the entire DDX3216... Heck if you like you could put apogee converters on the DDX, which would be funny, cause for the price of a DDX you get a whole 2 channels of apogee conversion.

So the real answer to your question is how much money do you have?

[Screaming_Rabbit]

Nothing for an iBook

... ooops... overlooked that  :-[

Greets, Roger

[chriss]

So the real answer to your question is how much money do you have?

thats exactly the point, money is always a topic and is always not enough.

a little research: (all EUR)

ECHO AUDIOFIRE 12 595.- (12 inputs, no ADAT)

RME Hammerfall-Fireface-400 850.- (8 inputs, expensive)

RME Hammerfall-Fireface-800 1249.-(8 inputs, expensive)

Behringer DDX3216 Digital Mixer 550.- (16 inputs, behringer and needs a FW ADAT)

M-audio FW1814 450.- (8 inputs+8/4 ADATs, sound qualitiy?)

So the echo would be the cheapest for the number of IOs. The DDX would be the simpelst and RME the maybe the one i have still fun in 10 years. (depends how long FW is supported)

Personally, I'd get rid of the PC and go with the DDX.

thats exactly what interrests me.

Is there a difference between pushing faders and buttons on a DDX or a LC?

(Assuming that the system audiocard-PC-software-LC runs stable).

But maybe these systems can never be as stable as a hardware mixer, and the advantage of a DDX might be that its easy to use from the beginning...and you can make some tunes without turning on the PC.

chriss

[stryd_one]

Is there a difference between pushing faders and buttons on a DDX or a LC?

(Assuming that the system audiocard-PC-software-LC runs stable).

But maybe these systems can never be as stable as a hardware mixer, and the advantage of a DDX might be that its easy to use from the beginning...and you can make some tunes without turning on the PC.

Bingo. :)

[ilmenator]

Hi Criss!

In terms of audio quality (measured values), the Behringer DDX desk is no low quality product. Even for the original price tag it was a bargain. The mic preamps are of very good quality, no matter what people say about Behringer - they just don't know (or need the exclusivity of higher priced brands).

In terms of sound quality I find it acceptable to pleasing. I used to work with an O2R in my job, and I find the Behringer superior in terms of sound quality. Of course, the O2R is 10 years old, which is far more than a lifetime in digital audio - but there are hundreds of very good sounding (and well selling...) mixes out there which have been done with that desk.

Also, the Behringer is easy to operate. I would not buy it for its MIDI remote capabilities, though - but you wanted to build an LC anyway, right ?  :)

Best regards,

ilmenator

[chriss]

hi ilmenator

thanks for your suggestions.

In terms of audio quality (measured values), the Behringer DDX desk is no low quality product.

good to hear.

One thing that always is so strange for me is the price fall of behringer products (of  course not the patchbay), i mean the DDX started with 1999,. EUR and is now at 600.-. The Multiface from RME is still nearly where it started and is a little bit older.

Also, the Behringer is easy to operate. I would not buy it for its MIDI remote capabilities, though - but you wanted to build an LC anyway, right

That was one reason i started this thread.

Having two mixing consoles in a small room, one for audio and one for midi makes no sense for me.

If i will buy the DDX, i think i will not build the LC for a long time..

chriss

[ilmenator]

Then I would build the LC, just for the fun of it  ;D

No, honestly, the Behringer DDX has no advanced MIDI remote functionality. Although you can download some Cubase MixerMaps from their website, I believe only the faders and one row of buttons is supported. I tried it only once and decided that it doesn't make sense for me.

Regards, ilmenator

[ruipenha]

Still regarding audio interfaces...

I've worked with many fw interfaces - digi002, m-audio, rme, motu, metric-halo... - and I've came up with a personal list:

worst of all - digi002 - totally unreliable, mediocre sound quality (for the price) and only works well with protools (the coreaudio drives suck all the power from the CPU and tend to crash with some particular softwares, like max)

ok - m-audio, I never tried echo fw, but I've worked with some echo products and I got the idea that they are more or less in the same "quality" class as m-audio.

very good - rme, metric-halo & motu

this three are quite different, though:

metric-halo makes excellent products, but it's a small company and very slow fixing bugs.

rme has good products, but they tend to launch a product and then use the same technology (converters, etc...) for a bit too much time.

motu - although they used some not-so-good-for-the-price converters in older products, and they tend to be totally silent regarding complains about bugs and schedules for fixing them, their products are great, work flawlessly and have great audio quality. After trying all this products, I ended up buying a 896 firewire interface, and I still think it was a good purchase (which is a rare feeling with technology products when you had them for some time!). They actually have a good line of products now, except perhaps the UltraLite: why spend 624,82 € on this when you can buy the 828 mk2 for 760,42 €?

I never worked with the new apogee fw interface, but I expect it to surpass all the ones I referred, from my previous experience with their products: ugly (actually this one is better!), but best-money-can-buy-(-and-you-can-actually-hear-the-results,-ok,-perhaps-not-with-your-edirol-speakers-)-material.

I hope this can be somehow useful!

Best regards,

Rui

[stryd_one]

Of course all that changes if you're on a PC.... For eg You'd want to avoid MOTU big-time...

[ilmenator]

stryd, I couldn't agree more...

As for RME, IMHO I think longer lifecycles of products are rather positive. Usually you get a better support and the manufacturer is interested in a product that actually works. Not only the hardware, but also the drivers. RME is an excellent example for that policy.

Regards, ilmenator

[Screaming_Rabbit]

Hi Criss!

In terms of audio quality (measured values), the Behringer DDX desk is no low quality product. Even for the original price tag it was a bargain. The mic preamps are of very good quality, no matter what people say about Behringer - they just don't know (or need the exclusivity of higher priced brands).

;D... no comment - but this bullsh... for shure sounds funny  :P

Greets, Roger

[audiocommander]

well, I have a small Behringer 12/2/2 Mixer for Live-Gigs (besides a larger Studiomaster for my homestudio) and I won't complain for the small amount of money I paid for. But I noticed, that if the input gain is too low, it's loosing a lot (nearly all) high frequencies. If I get the gain right, it's okay. But I'm not using it for sweet harps'n'whispered poems, you know... ;D

[ruipenha]

Of course all that changes if you're on a PC.... For eg You'd want to avoid MOTU big-time...

My ignorance... I know of corse that Motu is a Mac thing, and quite an old relationship in fact. But can you please tell me more? I don't want to keep giving good reviews of any product without knowing all the complains other people have...

As for RME, IMHO I think longer lifecycles of products are rather positive. Usually you get a better support and the manufacturer is interested in a product that actually works. Not only the hardware, but also the drivers. RME is an excellent example for that policy.

I agree with you... I just had a bad experience with RME regarding their on-board mixing chips and went on to find that they were charging this year's price for last year's technology... I had no experience with their support, but I agree that a good support is worth sometimes more than the difference of the price in two similar products... and I heard that Motu support, specially for us europeans, is not great: I just never had a problem with mine, so I can't complain.

Again, and if someone cares about my advice (hey... it's free!), just try to keep away from Digidesign and Esi, two companies with whom I had nothing but unjustified trouble.

[stryd_one]

The reasons for my dissing MOTU are pretty much as you said, they like to "mushroom" their clientele (keep them in the dark and feed them sh*t)... Bugs are never acknowledged, same as the mac stuff....but the real problem is, that PC's are priority #2 for MOTU, after Macs.... So if it takes them a year to fix a bug for the mac, it takes them 2 years to fix it for PC.... If they fix it at all (which they often don't).

[audiocommander]

>:(

Don't ever buy something from Guillemot/Hercules (if you're on a mac). I just had to restart my computer and as a side-effect of removing the kernel extension, I had massive start-up problems and multiple kernel panics - not even startable in safe-mode. Had to remove hundrets of files manually...

If you want to access the support, you have to register and then get notified three days(!) later, that you are allowed to complete your profile (= personal data) before even submitting a question  >:( >:(  grrrr....  >:(

[Jidis]

Ruipenha,

I'm a MOTU user myself and can ditto everything stryd_one said, but unfortunately, there's a few more nasty angles to it than just the notorious Windows software issues. I was up their ass pretty bad for a while in the Unicornation forum, but figured it wasn't worth the time it took, so I came out (for the time being, anyway ;) ).

Some aspects have always been really bad (the busy signal telephone line and "invisible" public relations come to mind), but there seems to have been a gradual change in some other areas, which doesn't make them look all that great. I'll try not to get into too much detail, but for a couple: They seem to have locked down every major recording/music magazine over the past few years via advertising funds, as well as building a questionable influence with some of the larger chain stores and websites where you might find reviews and organized "recommendations". There are issues with their support, as well as certain known problems and incompatibilities with various hardware, which, IMHO, never really makes it through any of those channels. I'm not implying that it's some major "conspiracy thing", it's more just that they seem to have sort of "evolved" as a successful business, by finding out what areas were most profitable to focus on, and went that route, with no intention of correcting any of the problems. Some have actually gotten worse, but whomever it is calling the shots there, obviously does not care to change them, as long as the bulk of the current and future customer base is kept unaware. Myself and others have been totally ignored by support, over repeated inquiries, and then had them suddenly try to contact us directly, only after mention was made in the public forum (which they don't participate in). They're also well known to respond with insulting "cut & paste" suggestions from their FAQ info, and usually don't continue to help, after they realize that the customer actually understands his/her equipment, and has a legitimate, common problem, which needs to be resolved on MOTU's end (or can't be).

The failure rate I witnessed from hanging around the UNation forum, was sort of the "last straw" for me, and it helped to explain their ability to keep the costs as low as they usually are. They almost seemed to anticipate a certain (high) percentage of failures, and had set up a support system where you basically pay a flat 80 bucks to have a refurb sent out or something. It sounds like a great deal, but they also only carry a 90 day warranty, and every active user over in that forum seemed to have had some experience with sending their interface back at some point, and somehow they were OK with that. Many have reported sending back interfaces more than once, and having the same issue or failure with the replacement. It really didn't make any sense to me. The stuff doesn't really have any moving parts, yet it often died on people within the first few months.

You can't expect much more at those prices, but it really is "mass-produced, disposable junk". Not that there's anything wrong with that (some of my favorite gear is "mass-produced, disposable junk"), but MOTU should be seen as such too. Their history of horrible customer relations and driver support doesn't earn them anything more than what we all throw at Behringer, Alesis, Mackie or anyone else. I only own one Behringer piece right now, and I actually like it, but I've had no serious failures with a whole slew of Alesis & Mackie junk, and the support is miles above MOTU. Well, to be truthful, some of my Alesis crap has some pretty flimsy "moving" parts, but I've never had any of the core circuitry go south on me. The 424 MOTU system, on the other hand, scares the hell out me. It works fine now, but I really have no idea of how long it might work. Even if it never croaks, it definitely would not likely be guaranteed compatible with any boards which came out a few generations after it was current. MOTU's "officially supported" list leaves much to be desired, even when the stuff is still on the shelves.

No offense to Ruipenha, or any fellow MOTU owners here, and I hope none of our stuff gives us any significant amount of grief over time.

Take Care,

George

PS- If you want to read any of it, there should still be a decent amount in that Unicornation hardware forum under "Jidis" from a few months back. Someone else was picking up where I left off when I slowed down. There's usually at least a couple "summarizers" in there. 8)             

[ruipenha]

George,

Sorry for this very late reply.

Well... I'm sorry to hear all that, and of course I don't have any reason to take it personally! All I can say is that I have a flawlessly working and good quality Motu 896 firewire interface, which I use with a tibook for 4 yeas now. After reading all this, I guess I can consider myself lucky!

That reminds me of an experience I had with Esi some time ago, with a M4U midi interface, which I bought new without needing it at the moment of purchase, only because they were selling it in a € 40 promotion, which is quite cheap for a 4x4 USB midi interface with "through mode". I tested it pronto, and it seemed to work fine, with some flaws I then thought came from the absence of drivers to MacOS X. I only found use to it some time latter, only to find it had a few problems that made it unusable (some note events were not send and the latency was not consistent). I sent several emails to them, with details on my experience and searching for help. After several weeks, they answered me they didn't have a clue about what could be causing the problem and had no means (or intention) to help me. I had to buy another interface, this time from another company, of course: a lot more expensive, but working as expected!

One thing that stroke me, though, is the 90-day warranty... Only 90 day? Is that possible? In Europe, is mandatory that all equipment carry a 2 year no-fault warranty, I sure hope this is not an excuse for them to send fully tested equipment here and sell the rest there.

Again, thank you for all the details, I'll be more careful with my advices regarding Motu in the future.

Best regards,

Rui