MBSID V2: Hardware Changes

[timofonic]

The expensive solution would require seperate CAN tranceivers for each PIC. But the diode/pull-up resistor approach works extremely stable as I noticed, and I think that tranceivers are only required for higher distances (e.g. > 1m or so..), or if you are planning to access the master/slaves from another CAN node like from a PC with CAN interface card (I've prepared this multimaster capability in the protocol).

Maximum distance: 40 meters

Best Regards, Thorsten.

Does the CAN interface provide advantages against a MIDI interface? It will be used for interconnecting all the MIDIbox platform modules in the future? You can have a big rack of different MIDIbox modules and connected to a nice panel on your desk using that CAN stuff, so not worring about putting an extremelly giant box on your precious desk space.

Are there a good list of CAN interface cards for PC? What ones are Linux-compatible? And BSD? I found the driver stuff seems a bit messy, too many projects and it seems none is standarised.

I found the following URLs:

http://canfestival.sourceforge.net

http://www.comedi.org

http://www.port.de/engl/canprod/sw_linux.html

http://www.vscp.org

http://www.ocera.org

http://www.can-wiki.info

http://caraca.sourceforge.net

http://canpie.microcontrol.net

http://sourceforge.net/projects/cantalope/

http://sourceforge.net/projects/fttcan4rtai/

http://sourceforge.net/projects/hms30c7202/

http://cantrace.sourceforge.net

http://ar.linux.it/software/index.html#ocan

http://sourceforge.net/projects/rtcan/

[TK.]

I've defined my own high-level protocol which is optimized for fast and secure transactions between a MBSID master and MBSID slaves (in theory also MBFM slaves will be controlable - let's test it next year). It doesn't follow a certain standard, as this would only restrict the possibilities. I also don't have plans to replace MIDI (although in theory it would be possible).

I neither own a CAN interface for my PC, nor I've plans to program anything into this direction. I can only say, that it is prepared for multimaster accesses, and thats all.

Don't know, what you want to say with the links...

Best Regards, Thorsten.

P.S.: yes, of course, also other MIDIbox synths or compatible devices could be controlled from the same master device. But just don't forget, that somebody needs to program the control surface software. This sometimes isn't a 1-2-3 task, a really good control surface is a work of months! And this fact seems to be overlooked by a lot of newbies here.

[SLP]

Have you bought the PIC18F4685 at Farnell or do you know a cheaper way to get them.

Farnell does import them from the USA which costs 20€ extra.

matthias

[TK.]

No, I got them as samples from Microchip.

They are available for US $7.78 from Newark - this is the company which collaborates with Farnell. Maybe somebody could ask Mike for a collection order for Europe, could organize it by himself, or ask SmashTV

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[SLP]

I've asked Mike wether he could offer them in his shop and he told me that he needs to get your permission.

sobald ich von Thorsten eine Freigabe habe werde ich sehen, das ich den PIC ins Programm aufnehmen werde.

matthias

[TK.]

After a lot of experiments I've frozen the HLP.

A summary can be found here: http://www.ucapps.de/midibox_network.html

Hope that it is flexible enough for the next 1..2 years ;-)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[stryd_one]

:o ;D 8) :) :-* :-* :-* :-* ;)

I think this might be the biggest midibox news in years. Huge.

Thanks again for all your work TK. I'm all excited I feel like a kid in a candy store!!

Sorry, but someone will do it sooner or later, so I have to be the first to ask... How fast is it in real-world applications?  ;) We know CAN will do 1MB/s but obviously there are other limitations, especially the resources on the PIC (no point pushing around huge chunks of data if the PIC has no cycles left to process it)... Surely there are other considerations, I hope you wouldn't mind telling us some more. But maybe take a break and admire the fruits of your labour first :)

Now all I need is a smoke while I read that page thoroughly and my paypal password for that little button up there ;)

[SLP]

.. and whats with midi-Mikes permission?

matthias

[MTE]

.. and whats with midi-Mikes permission?

No "permission" needed....when TK give Mike the OK for something (new PCBs,PICs...) Mike will add it to his shop. He telled me this some days ago on the phone ;)

Regards

MTE

[SLP]

sobald ich von Thorsten eine Freigabe habe werde ich sehen, das ich den PIC ins Programm aufnehmen werde.

that's what midimike has written in the email he sent me.

...and I think TK and you know what I've meant  ;)

matthias

[smashtv]

SLP I am having trouble understanding your requests and statements on this, to me it looks like you are acting a bit pushy towards Thorsten for a release date?

I dont speak German but as far as I can tell his reply was not about permission, but about waiting for the official release (the way both Mike and I always have).

If I missed something here please enlighten me.

Best

SmashTV

[MTE]

...and I think TK and you know what I've meant

???

[TK.]

I think this might be the biggest midibox news in years. Huge.

for me it's a nice new toy which opens a lot of new possibilities. In fact, the control surface handling is realized in a much more elegant way now :)

Sorry, but someone will do it sooner or later, so I have to be the first to ask... How fast is it in real-world applications?  ;) We know CAN will do 1MB/s but obviously there are other limitations, especially the resources on the PIC (no point pushing around huge chunks of data if the PIC has no cycles left to process it)... Surely there are other considerations, I hope you wouldn't mind telling us some more. But maybe take a break and admire the fruits of your labour first :)

The transfer rate heavily depends on the frame content, I can only give some approximated values, which I've measured with the scope.

Without the request/acknowledge protocol the transfer rate of a RAM->RAM transfer is about 120kb/s

With the HLP I'm using to ensure that a slave doesn't miss a message it's ca. half of this: 60kb/s

(assumed is a payload of 8 bytes for each frame + 2 bytes of the extended ID. The remaining bits of the ID, the CRC, the stuffed bits are not counted)

Compared to MIDI (3kb/s) this means an improvement of factor 20

But the speed alone doesn't make the performance, it's also the functionlity given by the ECAN peripheral.

E.g., due to the hardware based message buffers and reception filtering it doesn't require an interrupt handler which collects the incoming data, this saves some CPU time, which is better invested in stimulating the SID registers. :)

Now all I need is a smoke while I read that page thoroughly and my paypal password for that little button up there

Thanks a lot!!!

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[modularkomplex]

@SmashTV:

SLP an me are discussing a bulk-order of PIC18F4685. As we dont want to disturb your (or Midimike's) business, SLP first asked both of you if you are planning to sell this PIC in the near future.

Midimike told him that he is waiting for the ok from TK to sell those PICs.

Mike

[stryd_one]

for me it's a nice new toy which opens a lot of new possibilities. In fact, the control surface handling is realized in a much more elegant way now :)

"Nice" is just one word I would use :) The special service TOS implementation especially, is very nice indeed, and the CS immediately springs to mind. I love the way you've done it, and just like with the C interface I think that you've made good functionality very easily accessible for us mortals :)

The transfer rate heavily depends on the frame content, I can only give some approximated values, which I've measured with the scope.

...

Compared to MIDI (3kb/s) this means an improvement of factor 20

Awesome  :D Uhm... just to make sure I am not confused, that's 60 kilobytes per second isn't it? That sounds too fast, but I keep checking my math and either it really is that fast, or I had an even worse day than I thought LOL Kbps,kBps,KBps,kbps,KBPS oh I don't know any more :P

Edit: I had to google to make sure I'm not going mad. http://web.forret.com/tools/bandwidth.asp?speed=31.25&unit=Kbps&title=MIDI :) I'm still sane! (arguably)

this saves some CPU time, which is better invested in stimulating the SID registers. :)

I like the way you think ;D

[SLP]

Thanks Modularkomplex for clearing all this  :-*

@SmashTV:

I've sent you a mail concerning the PIC18F4685 , too, but you didn't reply.

The Problem I have is that I want to finish my SID within the next weeks and that I need 2 PIC18F4685.

matthias

[seppoman]

Hi,

The Problem I have is that I want to finish my SID within the next weeks and that I need 2 PIC18F4685.

honestly, I don´t understand why you are in such a hurry now. For MBSID 1.7, you probably won´t get a real advantage with using the CAN Pic, and V2 programming has not even really begun. I will definitely wait for the official release before resuming work on my new MBSID. Ok, I already have one, so it´s not really urgent ;) . But it won´t be a big deal for you finishing the MBSID 1.7 in it´s current state and exchange the PICs and change a few wires when time has come.

If you really want the new PICs now, consider ordering the PIC18F4685s as samples from Microchip. The only thing you need for that is a non Yahoo/Hotmail/GMX... email adress. Especially in this case of hard to get parts, I see no moral problem with getting samples.

Anyway, as the release date of V2 is still in far future, you can´t even be sure if any malfunctions (see EUSART bug) or new models that are even better suited show up until then, so I fully understand that Mike and Smash might not be too keen on stocking them now...

Seppoman

[visibleman]

honestly, I don´t understand why you are in such a hurry now. For MBSID 1.7, you probably won´t get a real advantage with using the CAN Pic, and V2 programming has not even really begun. I will definitely wait for the official release before resuming work on my new MBSID. Ok, I already have one, so it´s not really urgent ;) . But it won´t be a big deal for you finishing the MBSID 1.7 in it´s current state and exchange the PICs and change a few wires when time has come.

I can understand this - I'm in exactly the same situation with my MBSID now - I just wish I can do the CAN wiring, put the PIC18F4685, close the box and never open it again for rewires etc - just upload V2 when its released....  :))  and use 1.7 on PIC18F4685/CAN before that....

[SLP]

I'm building a stereo-SID and I'm already finished with the PCBs.

For the SID 1.7xx a PIC18F452 is required, but some days before

I ordered the stuff I've read that the SID V2 requires a newer

PIC18F4520 so I've ordered 2 of them.

While waiting for the PCBs and the PICs I was a bit shocked

when i read that the SID V2 requires a more newer PIC18F4685.

So I selled the 2 PIC18F4520 to Modularkomplex.

But now I need 2 PIC18F4685 which are even harder to find

and Modularkomplex, who is also building a SID,  and I were

discussing where to get some.

Either we buy them from Farnell which is quite expensive

because they are importing them from the US which costs

20$ extra, or we buy them from Midimike or Smash.

Now there are two possibilities:

1. Midimike and Smash offer them in their shops, or

2. I've to start a bulk-order to compensate Farnell's shipping costs

what will probably result in disturbing Midimike's and Smash' shops

And as it's quite likely that the PIC18F4685 is required for the SIDV2

and as the SID V1.7xx does also work with the PIC18F4685,

it's IMHO the best if Midimike and Smash start offering them in their

shops.

I don't want to be pushy towards Thorsten! No, not at all!

I do really respect his work and i think that TK is really deserving

respect. Not only for developping but also for the good support

and the detailed descriptions on ucapps.de .

What i want to do is exactly what visibleman described.

Build it, and never open it again.

ok - I wouldn't mind changing some wires, but I don't want buy new PICs

as soon as SID V2 is released.

my 2 cents.

matthias

[seppoman]

And as it's quite likely that the PIC18F4685 is required for the SIDV2

Quite likely, exactly... You didn´t really read my posting, did you?

I don't want to be pushy towards Thorsten! No, not at all!

But in fact you are, also towards Smash and Mike. As mentioned, there´s no official release date yet and it might well be more than half a year until something´s going to happen. Everything Thosten says now about needed PICs etc. is no final statement yet, but you sound like "But you said this and that, can´t I trust you anymore?" There is NOTHING final about V2 yet!

What i want to do is exactly what visibleman described.

Build it, and never open it again.

ok - I wouldn't mind changing some wires, but I don't want buy new PICs

as soon as SID V2 is released.

What´s the problem with opening the box? Will it be made out of concrete?

What´s the problem with getting new PICs when it´s really decided and necessary?

What´s the problem with ordering (Free!!!) samples from Microchip if you´re really keen on having PIC18F4685s?

In my opinion, for Mike and Smash it would be unreasonable to stock on PIC18F4685s as long as there´s no final word from Thorsten about the PIC used. And Thorsten has no obligation to you or anyone else to have to decide that now...

Seppoman

[bill]

:o Some projects are under developpement. That mean that they are subject to changes.

It's good to make those available anyway, for testing purpose.

If you just "want to build, and never open it again" Then wait for "Final" versions.

Dont feel offended, but if you dont like DIY, do not DIY.

[TK.]

The full featured PIC18F4685 version of the bootloader, MIOS and MBSID V1.7 is already distributed to experienced users.

I'm waiting for feedback to ensure, that everything works flawless before new users are starting with the overworked firmware - this is to avoid an immense support effort at my side for this new technology.

Patience please!

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[modularkomplex]

Whooa, SLP and me both only wanted to make sure that nobody is being disturbed with an eventual bulk-order organized by us. More precise: We just wanted to know if Midimike or SmashTV are offering this PIC in the near future. We did'nt want to push anyone to anything.

I am interested in the new possibilities with the new PIC and the actual SID-Version. If it is then in the final v2 - great. If not - No problem I'll find a use for them. But at the actual building speed of my Step C CS the v2 is being finished before my box is complete. (OK, its sounding already - but with no CS its half the fun)

Peace

Mike

[TK.]

Awesome  :D Uhm... just to make sure I am not confused, that's 60 kilobytes per second isn't it?

Yes, it's 60 kilobytes per second :)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[smashtv]

@SmashTV:

I've sent you a mail concerning the PIC18F4685 , too, but you didn't reply.

Sorry about that, while trying to find a good way to explain and say "I don't know", I probably was derailed by something else.....This happens on days that I get 100+ legit emails, it's terrible to admit but often sales questions get pushed to the side while I answer tech questions about kits people have already bought.  :-\ 

For the record:  I always support group orders and will help any time I can, But have not been asked this question yet about the new PIC, even in unanswered emails.  ;)

If you need some help getting the 4685 let me know, but I don't have a known good way to program them yet so you would have to burn the bootloader yourself.

I have to agree with the guys that you are jumping the gun on this one, the goal of "Build it, and never open it again." is not met by running early beta firmware.

I don't want buy new PICs as soon as SID V2 is released.

Understood.  But you have to decide if you can afford to be on the "bleeding edge" or if you can wait like everyone else.

For the SID 1.7xx a PIC18F452 is required, but some days before

I ordered the stuff I've read that the SID V2 requires a newer

PIC18F4520 so I've ordered 2 of them.

While waiting for the PCBs and the PICs I was a bit shocked

when i read that the SID V2 requires a more newer PIC18F4685.

That change took a few of us by suprise, but change is in the nature of this project.  Until you have 3 tubes of 4620s on the shelf like me, no whining about chip changes please.  ;D  (I can only poke fun like this knowing that I was waiting a few days on your for sale post to make an offer to buy them back)

Can we put this thread back on topic now?  Should I split the availability posts from this topic into a new thread?

"Good, fast, cheap, choose any two"

Best

SmashTV