Wilba

TK: I haven't heard that demo before! Very nice! Where is that MP3 linked to from the V2 manual??? (**edit** I found it!) I'm deciding whether to design a PCB layout for the CEM3378/CEM3379 and get a small batch made... is there much interest from other people in such a PCB? Even if I don't make a PCB, I still need a schematic for this filter to connect my SIDs to the CEMs. I've only got the one from the datasheet so far, so if anyone else progresses futher with a design, let me know. Or let us all know ;)

Good news, I've located stock of the 7-pin DIN socket (into which most of you will plug your C64 power cable) at a local distributor. I will personally purchase a big bag of these and distribute with every base PCB. I do this because I wasn't sure if parts from other manufacturers (especially Mouser's one) would match the PCB, At least this way, I have the sockets in my hand that match the PCB design before I order the PCBs. Unless you are building your own PSU and definiately not using the C64 power supply, you should get one, so I will add it by default to everyone's base PCB order, it will cost an extra US$2 per socket. Now the switch: As mentioned earlier, a switch that appears to match the PCB and case has been found at Mouser, I will try to see if I can get them before ordering PCBs, but if I can't, it's not as critical as the socket, as people can solder in any cheap DPDT switch just to get their base PCBs running, and get the right switch along with future bulk orders... those planning to get their base PCB components from Mouser can just add the switch to their order at that time. A full BOM (bill of materials, i.e. parts list) for the base PCB is being prepared now, I will post it very soon.

1. No one will be left behind If you've posted to this thread or sent me a PM, then you are on the list. If you've followed the instructions sent to you by PM, and replied to me by email and confirmed your PCB orders, then you are confirmed. If you haven't followed the instructions and I don't have an email address yet, then I'll nag you until I do. 2. This stuff takes time Some people don't get online every day, and haven't emailed me back yet, so as a courtesy to everyone, I will wait until I have confirmation from everyone who expressed interest in getting the PCBs. This means that it might take another week to finally get everyone's email addresses and send out PayPal requests. 3. Sorry for being brief I can't maintain in-depth discussions with 50 people simultaneously. This thread will contain the "latest news" on the process of ordering PCBs and arranging other bulk orders. 4. One thing at a time As much as I would love to post boxes with all the bits you'll need to make one "just like mine", I've said from the start that I am not selling kits and the best you can hope for is for me to coordinate bulk orders. This is why I am processing the PCB orders first, and leaving panels and other parts orders until after this is done, because they will take time to sort out. Yes, you may have to pay a little more in postage costs, getting PCBs delivered separately to panels and other components, but considering you're getting an absolute bargain on both PCBs (US$40 vs. the US$130 I paid) I hardly think an extra postage cost is going to send you broke. In addition, those people who just want the base PCB shouldn't have to wait for the rest of you to sort out panel artwork and CS parts orders. 5. Please be patient I can't stress this enough... coordinating a bulk order of 50+ people is time consuming (for me) and is only as fast as the slowest person.

There are still people who have not confirmed their order for PCBs and whether they want to join in the bulk order of panels. This thing is going to drag out for ages if people aren't checking their PMs and emails regularly. The plan at this stage is to get just the PCB order done, that means collecting PayPal payments for just the PCBs + shipping, which I can then use to pay for the PCB manufacturing (they conveniently take PayPal payments, so this works out well for me!) That means people will get their PCBs sooner, and can start soldering the base PCB while they wait on bulk orders of panels and other components. I don't see much point in holding up the PCB order while all the other orders are being put together, especially the knobs.

Update: PCBs are going to be US$20 each. This includes shipping to me, and any other extra costs. Twin-x: I'm OK with you (or anyone) finding a good deal on the panels. It's going to be at least 25 panels, maybe up to 40 by the time we order. I might need the help of a U.S. MIDIboxer to receive a bulk order of the power sockets, I found a dealer with a good price but they don't ship international. >:( These may or may not have the right pinouts as the C64 ones, so I may need to tweak the layout, hopefully not.

Quick estimate of the cost (US$) of control surface components, if purchased through a bulk order of 40 "boxes". Product Qty per Box Total per Box PacTec PT-10 1 $18.28 ALPS SKHHDTA010 47 $11.75 Rotary Encoder 15 $24.30 Knobs 15 $18.39 10mm Threaded Spacers 22 $7.26 LEDs 109 $10.90 20x4 LCD, YG backlight 1 $20.30 TOTAL $111.18 [/code] That price might even come down a little if I get the encoders direct from China ;) but maybe for the convenience of ordering a lot of these parts from Mouser and combining shipping, it's not worth the effort. LEDs will probably come from an eBay dealer. Knobs are tricky though, there's not enough knobs at ALBS to cover 40 boxes, so maybe I can get a new production of the black with white or clear strips... an order for 600 might be enough, I don't know yet... but I'll probably pick something neutral so people can choose different LEDs and LCD if they really must ;)

The panel order has reached 23, with a possible 13 more. Wow! :o sonicwarrior: Can you arrange a quote from WK-Mechanik? Make sure they can do white silkscreen on 1.5mm thick black anodized aluminium. I would do it myself but it's all German ??? I said from the beginning I am not selling kits but I have decied that I will arrange the bulk orders of control surface components and maybe the switch/power socket (because they're pretty specific and hard to find). I am a bit worried about you all requesting quotes for 15 knobs from http://www.albs.de and poor Balthasar having a heart attack, or worse, taking even longer that is typical of him to process your order, or even worse, being told 15 knobs is too small an order for him to bother with. So please don't order knobs for yourself just yet, this will only make things difficult when someone does a bulk order. I'm assuming the majority of you wanting the CS PCB and panels also want knobs like mine, the only ones available now come in black with red strips, but maybe not enough for everyone, there's a few more with transparent red strips, which should look equally cool. This probably means people will be happy with red LEDs and a green backlit 4x20 LCD, a very nice combo which I've seen done before, and posted pics on this thread before. In order to keep the noise on this thread down ;) I'll send out emails about joining bulk orders of components, particularly the knobs, but I might as well arrange orders for PT-10 case, LCD, rotary encoders, switches, LEDs, 10mm threaded spacers, power switch and power socket, as these are the parts specific to the control surface. i.e. It makes sense to buy a new power switch and power socket than destroy a perfectly good C64 for these parts, and I'm willing to arrange the bulk orders to save that poor little C64 ;) Similarly, you can get good deals on the more expensive items. If people are happy to pay in advance for the parts they are ordering, then I'll have the money required to make bulk orders and pay for them, then after all the bits are assembled, I can send requests for postage costs. In theory, the postage costs of a big parcel of bits from me should be less than the sum of postage costs of individual parts, plus any savings you get from joining in the bulk order should make this a worthwhile exercise. However, I won't bother with the other common electronic components, as most of you are in Europe and get far better deals than I can from online electronics shops. Feel free to comment on this idea, but don't just post "Yes I will join the bulk orders", wait for the email I will send you soon and reply to that please.

Well, if Sasha owns one and gives it a good review... ;D I'll just go ahead and get one. Sasha: I might try doing the same thing, so I'll hunt around for a DB44 connector too.

THE TIME HAS COME Finally, the moment you've all been waiting for, a production of the PCBs will be made very, very soon. I added up the requests and we're at 49 for the base PCB and 25 for the control surface PCB, that's an unconfirmed number, and may include people "interested" but not going to actually "order". Still, I'm pretty amazed by that number. http://www.midibox.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=wilba_mb_6582_orders I've tried to send a PM to everyone but since I can only do 20 an hour, it will take a couple more hours to PM everyone... some of you may miss the PM, so I'll quote it here also: If I've missed you, you've changed your mind, or you've been lurking and not committing to an order yet, then now is the time to speak up. Also, people ordering a control surface PCB are strongly advised to join the bulk order of the panels, as this is going to be a lot cheaper and a greater chance of success. For example: Frontpanel cost is 1x @ $118.62 and 20x @ $83.03 Rearpanel cost is 1x @ $33.07 and 20x @ $23.15 (US Dollars) So that's a saving of $45 if you join in the bulk order. Hopefully the number will get up to the 20x price break, there are 25 of you wanting the control surface PCB so it's entirely possible. I'm just not sure who'll want to arrange the $3000 order! ;D It will probably end up being me, as I've dealt with Front Panel Express before and could probably haggle with them a little, extra 10% off or something, and can combine shipping of PCBs and panels... ;)

Thanks for the replies. I really don't plan to buy a pre-amp, as I don't plan to record anything other than SIDs, eventually an MB-FM and SpeakJet and other synth toys perhaps... I'd really like a nice easy solution to connecting an unbalanced jack into a balanced socket. Quoting from Wikipedia: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Balanced_audio ... this seems to suggest all I need to do is put a resistor beween the unbalanced output and the "hot" wire, and a matching resistor between the "cold" wire and the unbalanced ground. More references all over the web suggest similar things, that some microphones just have a couple of resistors in them to drive a balanced input by "impedence-balanced" method (as opposed to the "differential mode" with inverted signals), with no problems about noise interference (because the signal really is balanced) so it seems like all I need is a couple of plugs and some resistors to hack together a simple adapter, but I'm stuck finding details about the resistors to use, and any confirmation that I'm on the right track and not being a st00pid n00b ;D The closest I've come is this article, which suggests a couple of 75 ohm resistors is all I need: http://www.soundcraft.com/extra_product_pages/audio_balancing/index.html

I'm deciding whether to buy an M-Audio Delta 1010LT or not... http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/Delta1010LT-main.html Seems perfect for my needs, 8x analog inputs matches my 8x SID box ;) but two inputs are balanced inputs, and I have no experience with balanced inputs. From what I can learn from the net, I understand how and why balanced inputs are a Good Thing, but I'm interested to learn whether it's going to be a problem plugging in my unbalanced SID outputs into these two balanced inputs, what kind of a converter/adapter I'll need, whether it will introduce noise or how else those two inputs will differ from the others. The M-Audio Delta 1010LT has some jumpers for controlling the operating line level of the balanced inputs (see manual, if you can be bothered! http://www.m-audio.com/images/global/manuals/Delta1010LT-Manual.pdf). The big question I'd really like answered is: Can I easily use these balanced inputs to record SID output approximately the same as recording them with the unbalanced inputs? i.e. is there a cheap DIY solution for making a "DI box" to convert SID output to balanced input?

Updates: Some minor tweaks of the frontpanel labelling. http://members.optusnet.com.au/~wilba6581/mb-6582/MB-6582_frontpanel.fpd Changed matrix/meter mode button/LEDs. Curve Assign button/LEDs remain on PCB, if I find a use for them I will add holes/labels back to the panel ;) http://members.optusnet.com.au/~wilba6581/mb-6582/MB-6582_CS_PCB.pdf

I just have a three-phase business plan.

http://cgi.ebay.com.au/New-8580-Sid-thing-Commodore-64-C64-C128-Amiga-Cap-Hat_W0QQitemZ180134666442QQihZ008

Of course they could do that, but that solution doesn't really work with the base PCB and the PT-10 case with the default rearpanel, which has a neat square hole to suit the C64 power switch. The main reason I hunted down those 6582 chips was to satisfy the need for SIDs without destroying C64s. Just got an email from SmashTV who has located an (almost) identical switch to the C64 power switch, also from Mountain Switches! http://www.mouser.com/catalog/specsheets/MS-100818.pdf Thanks Smash! (strike-through edit by SmashTV: I was wrong this switch does not fit...Not even close :-\) For those who are interested, here's the latest version of the panel artwork: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~wilba6581/mb-6582/MB-6582_frontpanel.fpd http://members.optusnet.com.au/~wilba6581/mb-6582/MB-6582_rearpanel.fpd They're slightly different to the ones on my MB-6582: * moved button and reduced to two LEDs for matrix mode, i.e. just Mod and Meter. * labeled buttons around menu encoder, i.e. left, right, up, down, shift, menu * renamed LFO waveform "Ramp" to "Positive" (to match V2 "positive-only" waveforms!) * renamed second row of envelope parameters * removed Curve Assign button/LEDs, now redundant! * renamed Osc Control label "Assign" to "Knob" * renamed mod sources "E1", "E2", "L1", "L2", etc. to "1", "2", "3", etc. * renamed Osc knob label "Arpeggiator" to "Phase Offset" (to match V2 "phase offset" param!) People who want the control surface PCB can be very confident that the size and hole placements described by this panel are not going to change (except maybe the hole for the display, which I will make slightly bigger to suit the display being further back). So you can start using these FPD files as a basis for your own panel artwork, resize the panel bigger to suit a different box, etc. I will advise people NOT to order panels just yet though... it ain't final until the PCBs are made, OK? ;D **edit** I forgot to mention, the holes for the encoders on that panel are bigger than they need to be, to support the illuminated knobs idea, which I turned off anyway ;) I will resize them smaller to suit smaller knobs.

I just had a quick browse for alternative switches, then realised that I really need to look amongst the commonly available ones, not just one I happen to find at random on the net. ;D One common trait I have is to not "reinvent the wheel" and slightly modified in this case, not to go hunting for a certain type of wheel when someone already did the hard work for me. Thanks to c0nsumer's efforts with his MIDIbox SID-NUXX project, and his almost obsessive documentation of every little thing ;) (that's his photo of the switch!), he's already found a nice, generic toggle switch for his PCB/box combination, from Mountain Switch, which is available from Mouser (that means commonly available) For those interested, see here: http://www.nuxx.net/wiki/MIDIbox_SID-NUXX_-_Mainboard#Bill_of_Materials But that's SPST, I want a DPDT. You don't actually need double throw, actually, but double pole is important, because you're switching on/off both the 9v AC and 5v DC current coming out of the C64 transformer. So I looked at the DPDT version of the one c0nsumer used, and it looks good... http://www.mouser.com/catalog/specsheets/MS-100726.pdf ... and then to my great happiness, discovered that the pinout and footprint actually matches the C64 one, exactly. So I guess there is a standard pinout/dimensions for PCB mount switches... Maybe this one doesn't poke out enough through the hole in the panel, or look that great with a square hole (if people stick with my original rear panel) but at least there's a solution of some sorts to the switch problem... and maybe if there really is a standard footprint, people could buy something similar from their local electronics shop.

You don't have to use eight SIDs in each, maybe you just like a nice control surface for two SIDs... For those who are interested, here's some PDFs of the PCBs, which should be 1:1 scale: http://members.optusnet.com.au/~wilba6581/mb-6582/MB-6582_Base_PCB.pdf 9200mil x 7215mil http://members.optusnet.com.au/~wilba6581/mb-6582/MB-6582_CS_PCB.pdf 9150mil x 6430mil (same size as front panel on PacTec PT-10 case) As probably mentioned before, or is implied I guess, the mounting holes on these PCBs line up perfectly with the PT-10 case. Everything is complete, I'm just not sure about the V2 and V3 regulator placements (the ones regulating the 12v and 9v supply when using the full "C64 optimized PSU" circuit), and what the best placement is for those wanting to put heatsinks on them (which might not even be required). For the very interested, I've neatly dealt with different configurations of the PSU circuit, you can either: a) plug in your own regulated +12v/+9v/+5v/gnd at J4 (and not use any PSU components on the PCB) b) convert the C64 transformer's 9v AC to DC and use only one regulator V1 just like on my prototype (i.e. use only 9v supply, no 12v supply) c) convert the C64 transformer's 9v AC to DC, add it to 5v DC to get 14v, and regulate this into V2 and V3 to get 9v and 12v supplies. All configurations let you change the voltage per SID using SIL header/jumpers (although they should be the same voltage per pair). Also if you don't want to use an original C64 power socket (7-pin DIN, PCB mount) you can connect via a SIL header (same deal with PCB mount MIDI sockets). However, if you do then you will have to modify your rear panel to suit. Maybe someone can find a bunch of 7-pin DIN sockets on the net, I found it too hard and just reused one from a C64. There's only one last problem for people wanting to populate the base PCB: I've used the original DPDT switch from a C64, so people who have not salvaged bits from a C64 and just have SIDs and the PCB will not have this switch, and also may have a problem finding a switch that suits the PCB and the default rear panel (if they are making a MB-6582 "clone" ;D ).... so what to do? Should I find a common alternative and make it "fit"? At the time of desigining my MB-6582, I wanted to use the original switch because it feels good and it's my little nod of respect to the original C64. :) but if it's going to be a major hassle to a lot of people, I can change it to a common and easily available PCB mount toggle switch of some kind... Those people organizing/joining a bulk order of front panels should discuss this more, whether this means making sure everyone has or can be given a C64 power switch (and power socket also, if they need one)... or coming up with an alternative. I'm also still not fully certain how good a LED backlit display will look when mounted through a hole in the control surface PCB... it should work, but I'm not sure.... I may have to make one prototype of this PCB and actually try it out and spread the cost across the production PCBs... Can I assume you guys are willing to paying an extra few dollars each for knowing it will all fit together nicely? ;D

I missed that! Damn! I would have traded for one with SID ;D

I would suggest first connecting the diode and pullup resistor, as per diagram, as if you were going to connect to other PICs, this would be my prime candidate for "the thing which is different in your setup, and thus why yours doesn't work" ;D Also, I noticed my displays preferred the four unused data pins to be open (not grounded) to make 4-bit mode work, but then I also observed the status byte being returned with nibbles reversed, so I had to abandon 4-bit mode and connect them with 8-bit data. This is probably irrelevant to your problem. If communication with the display goes into timeout, then it just won't be used anymore (display "freezes"), but the sound engine and control surface (buttons/LEDs) continue to work.

I don't get how silicon encased in ceramic or plastic can oxidise.... ??? I'm not too worried, I'm sure in 50 years we'll also have the technology to make reproductions of vintage silicon chips. ;D

hehehe yeah, I am a bit mental... :o

Sometimes I wonder what all the fuss is about... ???

Yeah, I've made it work (essentially) like four Core modules stuck on a single PCB, so if you want to add AOUT or something to the IIC port or even something to the DIN/DOUT chain, all that is possible.

Therezin: that bridge rectifier has different pinouts to the ones I've seen, where +/- are diagonally opposite. I recall another MIDIbox builder got caught by that difference and fried a transformer. Can you put a warning note or something on your website???

If I wait long enough, there'll be a batch of 50 made! Where are you guys getting all the SIDs? Or are you happy to have less than eight? I'm still on my trip, nothing's happening at the moment... Anyone live in Oslo? I'm going there tomorrow... anyone in Oslo can email me at I_love_spam@gmail.com (joke! just PM me or post your phone number in this thread).