Wilba

Actually that's cool... the idea worked, AND you proved you didn't need to desolder the caps/crystals on Core 2 AND you showed pics so I believe you :) It seems the only difference is the way the PIC is "seated" in the Core 2 socket... Let's assume you were very wise and bought more than one extra 40-pin IC socket :) now try to put the PIC in this loose IC socket and then put both into Core 2. So basically the same as the second picture, but without the bent pins/wires. If that makes things work (and based on your results so far, that's just as unbelievable but still possible) then you've narrowed things down even more. I am approaching the point of being stumped.... not quite there yet, I can still come up with some more tests to do, but running out of ideas. At least we know the parts are good, and it really is only a contacts/joints problem.

Great job, Blixman!!! Congratulations! White panels look really cool. It looks like a FPE/Schaeffer panel, but how did you get it in white? btw I think a red/black LCD would look perfect with this... http://character-lcd-lcds.shopeio.com/inventory/details.asp?id=1287&cat=Lcds&sub=Character%20Lcd or... I just remembered... I could send you something like this for free... I just got a box of them with amber backlight, but it is easy to swap the amber LED for white. http://www.crystalfontz.com/product/CFAH2004A-TFH-JT (to be honest, the text looks more like this one: http://www.crystalfontz.com/product/CFAH1602L-TGH-JT)

*** This bulk order is CLOSED *** Thanks guys.

You're all crazy, which is good for me. One more box of 96 available, then I'll close this bulk order.

* Wilba is green with envy

They come in trays made of thin white plastic, shaped like ice cube trays, with two encoders in each compartment. Last time I sold these, I could neatly pack 48 compartments in a standard parcel box, with four more encoders thrown in to make up the 100... the weight just went over 1kg and into a higher postage price bracket (1kg-1.25kg instead of 750g-1kg). So in the interests of saving people money, and slightly neater packing, 96 is a better number. If you want a gross, I can do that too. :) BTW I also welcome people to take on a box and split it amongst people local to you (eg. MB-6582 builders). People intending to use my MB-SEQ PCBs (eventually!) don't need to worry, I will be selling 17 per board if they want them, but they could get their encoders now if they want and have enough for other projects.

w00dy. c00l. Did you get them done by Ponoko? If so, can you share the svg file? It would be nice to see what vector/rastor settings produce this result (Ponoko website is lacking in hi-res and focussed example photos).

Wouldn't it make more sense to break them up into quantities of 15 and sell to MB-6582 builders, than to try selling them more expensive than my bulk order?

I retract the phrase "extreme MIDIbox builders who want a lifetime supply of encoders". It seems the 100 nebula bought from me last time was not enough :)

*** This bulk order is CLOSED *** I'm running another bulk order of rotary encoders, I'm too lazy to write it up again so I'll just quote the original, see strikeout changes: My intention is to see if I can buy the minimum order quantity of 2000 now, which will meet my current commitment of ~400 for Aussie MB-6582 builders, ~50 for /tilted/ who's been nagging me for some, and another ~250 for me. So that's 700 that I need, with 1300 spare. 1300 is actually less than I ultimately will need for the MB-SEQ kits, so if there's say 10-13 people who want 96 each, then now is a good time to run this bulk order for the extreme MIDIbox builders who want a lifetime supply of encoders :) and I will get another 2000 later just for the MB-SEQ kits. If you're crazy and want more than 96, I can sell you multiples of 96, but shipping will be approximately the same. All you have to do is post here, to confirm your interest.

From what you say, you seem to have been very thorough in testing for shorts and continuity... it's probably impossible for me to rule out a bad solder joint or short somewhere when I'm not the one testing it :) Again, if I was facing the same symptoms, I would probably try to prove it's the crystal and C1_CORE2/C2_CORE2 caps at fault before desoldering them... I'd do this by getting a spare 40-pin IC socket and bending pins 13,14 out flat, then putting the PIC into this IC socket before putting both into Core 2, but after I'd connected those bent-out pins of the IC socket to pins 13,14 of an empty IC socket of another working Core (eg. Core 1). In other words, make the PIC work in Core 2 but using the crystal and caps of Core 1. You can solder a cut resistor lead (or capacitor/diode/etc. lead) to the end of a wire to make it go into an IC socket. You can probably just wedge the end of the wire between the PIC pin and the IC socket (the one in which you bent out pins 13,14). I cannot guarantee that would even work! I would definitely keep the wires as short as possible. Be careful when inserting the PIC+socket into another socket... you do not want to make contact between the pins 13,14 of the IC sockets... perhaps a piece of thin card or paper will ensure insulation... also make sure you insert the socket into the Core firmly, the pins of IC sockets are shorter and are not gripped well by the IC socket underneath. This is a neat trick to use if you are frequently moving a PIC around as you do not need an IC removal tool. If finding a spare 40-pin IC socket is difficult, you can just carefully and gently bend out the pins 13,14 from the PIC and do the same kind of testing (avoid solder to the PIC pins!) and this would not harm the PIC if you bent it out and bend it back in only once. These are the extremes I would go to just to avoid desoldering :) Anyway, give it a try if you can... it can't hurt... but I'd suggest you try it between two known working Cores to prove the theory works (i.e. using crystal+caps from another Core).... wires between PIC and crystal may introduce some interference or affect the oscillation (beyond my knowledge there sorry) so I can't say for sure if this idea works.... but if it does work, it proves exactly where the problem is, or is not. You should also try the reverse, the PIC+socket in Core 1, connecting to crystal+caps of Core 2, to get more information. More information is good. I hope I've made sense here, and that you understand both the process and intent of these tests... it's all about swapping parts of what works with what does not, to isolate the part that does not work.

OK... I have enough orders for an 11 PCB production. Wilba: 1 Modularman: 1 /tilted/: 1 ringmod45: 5 strophlex: 1 moogah: 1 nebula: 1 Sometimes you get more PCBs than you ordered and paid for, in that case, I'll sell the spares here to other bleeding edge prototypers.

ahhh... that might explain intermittent "Ready" message also... Please ignore suggestion to replace C1_CORE2,C2_CORE2... I totally forgot that you once had a "Ready" message on Core 2, so now I've changed my mind on what's wrong... it is most likely not a dead crystal or dead capacitors since you did say that the "Ready" message was intermittent, so it DID work at least once... and therefore highly unlikely that either crystal or capacitors died since then. Intermittent "working" strongly suggests an intermittent connection between things that should be connected, but also possibly intermittent connection between things that should not be connected. You'll need to check for both, in the simplest case, just check no two adjacent pins of the PIC are shorting between each other. First, what I probably should suggest is, taking the PIC out and putting it back into the IC socket, and making sure it is pushed into the socket as far as it can go. If that doesn't work... it's back to looking for a bad solder joint or some other bad contact between PIC pins and PCB. You should test continuity between a PIC pin (and I mean the actual pin coming out of the IC) and pads it should be connected to (in the case of 5V/ground this is easy, for others it means finding the connected lead of a resistor). Use the PDF as a guide.

At this point, it seems likely that the PIC is not booting/running at all in Core 2, therefore you're not seeing the upload request in MIOS Studio and also not seeing anything on the LCD (i.e. a "Ready" message from MIOS installed on the PIC).... and that it's probably something to do with the crystal and/or capacitors C1_CORE2,C2_CORE2. Do all the following, reporting results: check there's really a 10Mhz crystal installed. check there are 33pF capacitors installed in C1_CORE2,C2_CORE2 it's possible that there's a bad joint on the ground pins of C1_CORE2,C2_CORE2 (the two pins which are closest to each other). check again connectivity between the crystal pins and both the PIC pins and the capacitor pins they connect to, also checking none are shorted to each other, any nearby pins, or ground (except one pin of each capacitor which should be grounded). check PIC pin 25 is not connected to pin 24 or pin 26, and is connected all the way to the bottom pin of R27 (the 2nd resistor to the right of the mount hole below the MIDI Out socket). Obviously J11 will have to have the jumper in position 2 for this to happen. I still think it's a soldering mistake somewhere, so I don't really want to suggest replacing the crystal or C1_CORE2,C2_CORE2 capacitors just yet... but obviously doing so might prove they are not the problem. I would perhaps try desoldering and replacing the capacitors first. Go to your local electronics store and buy new 33pF ceramic capacitors, they are so cheap and it's a lot easier to cut the soldered one in half and desolder/remove one pin at a time. Perhaps buy one new 10Mhz crystal at the same time, also cheap enough to buy even if you don't use it. I am guessing here now, but maybe the capacitors were damaged while you soldered them (esp. the ground pin which is harder to solder and needs more heat)... that might explain good connectivity between everything but the PIC doesn't run at all so you don't see the MIDI or the LCD working.

I am assuming you mean the MB-6582 CS PCB... There should be no problem if you've only soldered the switches, as I typically snap-in nearly all of the switches when I do this stage. You would just need to be careful where you place the clamps so that you're not putting the clamp over a switch. If you've already soldered rotary encoders, then that also won't affect this stage, although it's leaving even less room to put the clamps... using something between the clamp and the panel (bit of scrap wood, etc) might help put the clamp between encoders. Soldering the LEDs will be a little bit harder if you have encoders already soldered, because you cannot just lay the panel+PCB top side down on a flat surface so the LEDs will be exactly the same height as the switch shafts. You could easily let the LEDs protrude further (i.e. go through the panel as far as possible) or use tape to stop them protruding past the panel surface (ideal if you are using flat-top LEDs anyway). Faced with this problem, I would probably go out and get some cheap particle board/MDF/chipboard the size of the panel and using the panel to mark holes where the encoders go, drill those holes at the same size so I could place the panel+PCB top side down and the encoder shafts could go into those holes, allowing the switch shafts to hold the panel above the board and then the LEDs could be soldered at the same height.

I meant, where the MB-6582 and the Core schematic differ is pins 35 and 36 - these will NOT be connected to J15_CORE2 as in the Core schematic.

OK the next step would be to test MIDI for Core 2, to prove the PIC is actually working in that Core and that the problem is just the LCD connection. You can easily prove MIDI works by moving the jumper in J11 to position 2 (so Core 2 Tx is connected to the MIDI Out socket). Then watch MIDI In window in MIOS Studio when powering on the MB-6582. You should see only one bootloader upload request because MIOS and MB-SID app is installed. If that works, move on to testing MIDI In by trying to upload the app again - note it's still device ID #0 even though it's in Core 2 (application uploads go to the PIC with that ID, regardless of which Core it is in). If those tests don't pass, then you'll need to fix MIDI first... it could be the PIC is not working because of bad connections to the crystal, the capacitors connected to the crystal (C1_CORE2,C2_CORE2)... missing ground connection to the Vss (ground) pins (pin 12,31)... If the tests do pass, the PIC is fine, the Core is fine, it's just something wrong between the PIC and J15_CORE2 pins. Test connectivity between each PIC pin and what it's connected to in J15_CORE2. Also check that none of these are shorted with other nearby pins. You can refer to this Core schematic to assist in connectivity tests: http://www.ucapps.de/mbhp/mbhp_core_v3.pdf Note PIC pins 35,36 are not connected to J15_CORE2 pins D2,D3, as this is a PIC18F4685 and only uses 4 bits to the LCD, and pins 35,36 are used for the CAN bus that connects the Cores together.

To be honest, I don't think these will work that well... they don't look like they hold the LED leads, and I think they would need some holes in the PCB to align properly. In a proper manufacturing environment, they'd work by holding the LED vertical and above the PCB while the bottom side is dipped in a solder bath... but since you have to turn the bottom side up to solder them manually, their usefulness is pretty limited :)

OK keep living in denial if you like... or educate yourself. http://www.newscientist.com/article/mg20126971.700-how-to-survive-the-coming-century.html

You don't need LED spacers if you use the panel to align the LEDs in the panel holes. Is there a reason you want to use LED spacers? If so, you'll have to check for clearance between them, as some LEDs are close together. I can't check the one you linked because the link doesn't work.

Someone might make a similar board soon, with a Core and stereo SID module on one PCB. ;)

After more thinking, an LCD that is intermittent between black bars and "Ready" means that the PIC is sometimes controlling the LCD and sometimes not (black bars mean LCD has power but not receiving commands). So it could be either PIC->LCD connections are faulty, and/or the PIC is not booting up, perhaps caused by bad joints to reset pin (pin 1), crystal oscillator pins, power supply (Vdd,Vss)... So a PIC might have good power connections but not actually be "working" due to those other pins, or be "working" but have some bad connections to the outside world (to LCD or to MIDI).

I think they will work, the ALPS one is 13mm so these ones from Reichelt will be 0.5mm shorter, which should be OK. I hope another builder confirms these are good.

Intermittent "Ready" message on LCD suggests bad solder joints somewhere in that Core, and since you shouldn't try soldering with the ICs installed, you'll have to wait for an IC puller.