MBSEQ usb out to daw --> out daw to usb midi interface --> out to synths

[Echopraxia]

MBSEQ usb out to daw --> out daw to usb midi interface --> out to synths

Is this the best way to try to get mbseq to sync to midi clock with a daw AND be able to record midi notes into daw AND send them back out to synths in real time so I can play/edit a midi composition of all the mbseq edits from daw's sequencers. ]

I'm am trying to figure out what is the best way to play mbseq and record all midi in to daw and have daw send out all midi data in real time through a midi usb interface. with regards to latency between mbseq and synths in this configuration. I tried this before with mbseq midi out to daw and when I had to many fx delays from the mbseq the pc would crash. Would the usb out solve this or would the pc still probably crash at the daw usb midi interface out? Only reason I ask is that I never made a hole for my usb slot in my case and have all my patterns events saved as mid outs and IIC's. Would a serial midi interface be any better. I'm still running 32bit.

Is there another way with maybe a motu midi time piece of midi patchbay routing scheme that could give me the flexibility I need?

Would any of the crashing be from reaper? Should I try other daws for midi external sync? Which ones? Lately I have been looking at protools since it opened up its audio interface requirements and it has a feature called midi beat clock. Does it work for what i'm trying to do?????

Anyone else tried this? I really like jamming on the mbseq and this way I can still control everything from mbseq and daw at the same time. This is becoming more important now that my instrument base is completely midi! rockin mb6582, mbfm, nord micro mod, mbseqv4, midi keyboard with some pedals and hopefully soon an elektron machinedrum.

Edited April 15, 2011 by Echopraxia

[Hawkeye]

Hmm. no answers here yet, so just how I use things with a pc...

- made the mbseq my midi-master-clock device (i way have a heck of a lot more faith in tks-midi-timing on a realtime os than abletons-midi-timing on a heavily interrupted-os, my windows laptop likes to take little naps for no other reason than to annoy me ;-))

- connect all synths and midi gear to the seq

- if you are out of "midi in" ports on the seq, you can always use midibox midi mergers to double up a port (and use different midi channels to identifiy the source devices).

- just regard the pc/mac as another piece of midi equipment (recorder, playback, synthesizer) on your seq setup, that is connected via the usb port (for minimal latency)

- use the usb virtual midi ports in the seq for direct pc->midi unit routings, e.g. i connected my machinedrum physically to a seq midi in/out pair and virtually to usb midi port 4 (in and out) and can use elektrons samplebank manager easily - as if the machinedrum would be directly connected to a midi interface pair on the pc

Edited April 18, 2011 by Hawkeye

[nebula]

I'm am trying to figure out what is the best way to play mbseq and record all midi in to daw and have daw send out all midi data in real time through a midi usb interface.

What is your DAW? Are you already using a multi-port MIDI interface?

[Echopraxia]

What is your DAW? Are you already using a multi-port MIDI interface?

Thanks for the replies guys. I'm using Reaper which only supports midi clock out NOT in :( I have been looking into protools but am on pc and I can't test it out. Maybe I should see if they have a demo. Does cubase have midi clock in sync? I would love to use the mbseq as master for this.

I have a old model (light green) midi sport 2x2 and a emagic mt4 with 2 ins and 4 outs but find the midi sport works better. I was looking at the motu time piece because it has a stand alone mode as well.

use the usb virtual midi ports in the seq for direct pc->midi unit routings, e.g. i connected my machinedrum physically to a seq midi in/out pair and virtually to usb midi port 4 (in and out) and can use elektrons samplebank manager easily - as if the machinedrum would be directly connected to a midi interface pair on the pc

So are you typically controlling the machinedrum with the mid in and out of the mbseq and then you change the midi routing in the event page of mbseq from midi to usb? can the usb connection from daws to mbseq route to the adjacent midi port of the mbseq? In other words, this sounds like I may be able to hook up all synths using the midi outs from the mbseq and have the daw record and also playback those midi connected synths with only the usb connected to the daw. This might be ideal.

Thanks again!

[Hawkeye]

So are you typically controlling the machinedrum with the mid in and out of the mbseq and then you change the midi routing in the event page of mbseq from midi to usb?

yo! i leave the machinedrum outs and ins connected to a midi in and midi out pair of the seq, and set up a (permanent) routing to the pc to virtual midi usb 4 port (both directions), so that any midi signals sent from the machinedrum appear on that usb4 port, and any data sent on that usb4 port is forwarded to the machinedrum.

So, if the computer is not powered up, i don´t have to change anything.. but when a pc is connected, it can control and record the machinedrum, if necessary (this is most useful for the elektron soundbank manager tool). The same goes for all midibox synths, many of them have nice (java) guis to control the banks and program patches.

can the usb connection from daws to mbseq route to the adjacent midi port of the mbseq? In other words, this sounds like I may be able to hook up all synths using the midi outs from the mbseq and have the daw record and also playback those midi connected synths with only the usb connected to the daw. This might be ideal.

this works perfectly - in my eyes there is no reason for another midi interface, ´cause routing everything through the seq only has advantages:

- you can set up any midi routing you like between keyboards and keyboard-less-synths, forward midi notes to the pc, forward pc playback to any midi device. e.g. i forward my roland keyboard midi out via mbseq midi in 2 to virtual midi usb port 3, where it can be recorded in ableton (appears as a separate midi device). not that i do that too often nowadays (read below). The recorded track can then be played back the other way round (if you have set up a routing in the seq).

- the seq v4 can have up to 6 outs (4x midi iic) and 3 ins which can be multiplied by midibox midi mergers or commercially available midi mergers.

i very often leave the pc turned off nowadays, since the seq is ready. you can do almost everything there... and until windows is booted up and the daw is started really any kind of spontaneous inspiration is long gone ;-). As your daw crashes, i have a certain feeling you might follow that route ;-)

enjoy & greetz,

hawkeye

Edited April 18, 2011 by Hawkeye

[Echopraxia]

i very often leave the pc turned off nowadays, since the seq is ready. you can do almost everything there... and until windows is booted up and the daw is started really any kind of spontaneous inspiration is long gone ;-). As your daw crashes, i have a certain feeling you might follow that route ;-)

I curently have my mbseq going midi out to all my synths and I absolutely love it! How are you recording and playing back when you want to? obviously you have a mixer in your videos but wanted to know the routing you have with your mixer to amp and mixer back and forth between ableton. Would a 2x stereo(4x mono) bus mixer be enough for this routing. I have been looking at super pci audio interfaces lately to get 192k audio in but they are very costly. Lynx has one with 4 ins and 4 outs @192k plus one stereo digital aes/spdif. Would you recommend for qaulity purposes only, to not have an mixer and just run synths directly into an expensive sound card and out of sound card to the amp. I do not mind having the computer on to hear the mix as i want to integrate the daw directly with mbseq to actually record and arrange int he way I am used to. Please do comment on your mixer bus in and out of pc with the mixer.

- you can set up any midi routing you like between keyboards and keyboard-less-synths, forward midi notes to the pc, forward pc playback to any midi device. e.g. i forward my roland keyboard midi out via mbseq midi in 2 to virtual midi usb port 3, where it can be recorded in ableton (appears as a separate midi device).

I'm looking at the midi router page. I'm looking at bus#1-4 and node#1-8. What are the benefits of bus1-4? Do you flip through nodes to get the midi in out routing you want? Would 8 nodes be enough to route 4 synths with a daw back and forth? How do you route from pc to mbseq to synth (to play back your recording midi notes which were inputted by the mbseq into the daw) ? It sounds complicated and I have a sinus infection and chills at the moment but I would love to tackle it one day.

Also since I am worried about latency would OSC be the better choice over USB? Do daws support this?

Edited April 18, 2011 by Echopraxia

[Hawkeye]

uh, many questions and i just switched over to having a beer after a long day ;-) so forgive me any imprecisions, please :)

Please do comment on your mixer bus in and out of pc with the mixer.

After long mixer search (had a discussion with Smithy on this forum last year, there is also a thread somewhere) and the obvious choice of analog (cheaper, more headroom, no double adc/dac conversion) vs digital (total recall, dac/adc conversions only once if you have an integrated firewire interface and if you control everything from your daw afterwards) and my daily routine use of computers (sometimes being fed up with them), i decided to go completely analog, old-school :) - no need for a pc for jamming. But, ofc. sometimes you want to record things, so this is the (cheap) setup:

- old 2003 1604 vlz mackie, which offers 4 +2 busses, which are recorded (see below)

- 8x8 sound interface (m-audio fasttrack ultra), 96khz-capable. I use this to record my digital synth (2 channels) and the 6 busses from the mackie. I currently use one bus pair as a "dry" bus - all synths, one bus pair as a "wet" bus (fx returns) and the master mix out bus pair for recording "live sessions". The mackie allows dynamic assignment of instruments to all busses, so you switch around from wet/dry/main out recording to recording any instruments, if you choose, you can push a few buttons and record six individual (mono) instruments on six channels, or three stereo instruments, which is enough for my recording requirements.

Going out of the pc, is a digital line to a digital synth (sampling) and two (stereo) channels assigned to the mixer and using two of its 16 channels. Using the mixer fx-sends potentiometers, I can use any pc-based instrument (vst) and send it through old-school fx units (e.g. delay or distortion unit) and record it again.

I'm looking at the midi router page. I'm looking at bus#1-4 and node#1-8. What are the benefits of bus1-4? Do you flip through nodes to get the midi in out routing you want? Would 8 nodes be enough to route 4 synths with a daw back and forth? How do you route from pc to mbseq to synth (to play back your recording midi notes which were inputted by the mbseq into the daw) ? It sounds complicated and I have a sinus infection and chills at the moment but I would love to tackle it one day.

You need 4 pairs of nodes to setup 4 full-blown instruments (input and output to pc) continuously, but consider if you need it continously.

I did setup only a pair for the machinedrum and a pair for the roland synth. When i need rutgers mb6582 manager, i create another routing temporarily.

The mbseq busses are used internally - i have not investigated this further - for nice effects like self-altering tracks. TK has written a lot more in the handbook, which i need to read again ;-) - for your request it is sufficient for you to connect IN1..X to USB1..X and vice versa.

Have a nice evening!

Peter

Edited April 18, 2011 by Hawkeye

[Hawkeye]

addendum, regarding your last question and to clarify things - there is no need to switch anything, for example a track on the seq just outputs to "out1". And any midi data coming from the pc, e.g. from virtual usb3 is also forwarded to "out1" - no conflicts here. Once again, TK build a perfect tool, which would really cost $$$ in the real world - i say this like this, because it is like a dream for me (and no i am not drunk by now ;-))..

Hope your infection gets better and have a good night,

Peter

[Echopraxia]

You need 4 pairs of nodes to setup 4 full-blown instruments (input and output to pc) continuously, but consider if you need it continously.

I did setup only a pair for the machinedrum and a pair for the roland synth. When i need rutgers mb6582 manager, i create another routing temporarily.

So If I am understanding you correctly I would set then synths as follows.

node 1: midi out1 > USB in1

node 2: midi out2 > usb in2

node 3: midi out3 > USB in3

node 4: midi out4 > usb in4

node 5: usb in1 > midi out1

node 6: usb in2 > midi out2

node 7: usb in3 > midi out3

node 8: usb in4 > midi out4

This would only accomplish 4 midi channels right? I have 4x for the mbfm, 4x for the mb6582, 1x for nord micro modular and hopefully soon an Octatrack. I guess having to switch channels in the nodes isn't too much hassle. Do you run mbseq master or machiendrum. Can md and ot interface with the computer daw with usb or only midi out/in? I may end up sequencing either the mbfm or the mb6582 from the OT. That would give me enough routes I think?

TK can we get more nodes please? :thumbsup:

Edited April 18, 2011 by Echopraxia

[Hawkeye]

So If I am understanding you correctly I would set then synths as follows.

...

yo ;-)

This would only accomplish 4 midi channels right? I have 4x for the mbfm, 4x for the mb6582, 1x for nord micro modular and hopefully soon an Octatrack. I guess having to switch channels in the nodes isn't too much hassle.

Changing channels/routings in the mbseq is not a hassle. I most often stack instruments for max polyphony, so the mb6582 only uses one channel.

Do you run mbseq master or machiendrum.

machinedrum is slave, of course, as is the pc :-). the machinedrum is very good for creating drum patterns with sampled instruments. the seq is really good for sequencing them. really, you want the seq to be master, it shines ;-).

Can md and ot interface with the computer daw with usb or only midi out/in?

the machinedrum interfaces only use midi (very old school, which is likeable) - the octatrack probably also supports usb.

I may end up sequencing either the mbfm or the mb6582 from the OT. That would give me enough routes I think?

Yes, I think there are enough routes. Please consider, that not all of your mentioned instruments may need a back-channel, and if they need it, they may need it only temporarily (like i described with the mb6582 which needs it only when using bi-directional tools, like rutgers fantastic librarian).

Also, personally i prefer layering and maximum polyphony over multiple instruments/multitimbrality in a synth (that saves midi channels and routes). But ofc, that may vary individually.

Bye,

Peter

Edited April 18, 2011 by Hawkeye

[Echopraxia]

In my never ending quest for a solid midi workstation that can slave to mbseq I came across propellerhead's slightly new software "Record". It seems to have a real fast response to external midi clock and actually responds to tempos changes in real time. Only problem is I think propellerhead's editor/arrangement/piano roll interfaces are no good. If you can maneuver around then I would suggest it because of the tight timing with mbseq. Another problem is that record/reason can only be slaved and can't send out mtc,mmc, smpte etc.

Another one I found with midi clock slave mode was Magix Samplitude. This one has been around for quite some time and I never even considered it until recently. I have found the midi editing and configurations to be very easy and usually only 1-2 clicks to get where you want. I might even switch from reaper! The only problem is the slave mode lags big time. When I hit start on the mbseq, samplitude for some reason jumps from 00:00:00 to 00:01:14 right away when I hit play on mbseq, then samplitude will play syncd but not in time. If any one knows how to solve this sloppy timing please enlighten me. How can a $200 program (record) do this so well and every other daw can't? Samplitude master midi clock mode works great however.

I did try to use rewire between reason and samplitude and it worked great if it was just those two programs, but I think that so far I cannot get mbseq master syncd to slave reason which is rewired to samplitude to work :(

If reason/record gets updated to allow sending mtc/mmc to other daws while in midi clock slave mode, I'll be in business. Reason will be the mbseq tempo router to samplitude. But I think Samplitude only plays a single project tempo :(

[monokinetic]

Hi, sorry to resurrect the thread after a month but I wanted to say thanks to Hawkeye for the idea of using the MBSeq virtual USB as a MIDI interface. I don't know why but it never occurred to me, super useful!

Also there's a few points I thought I could add to:

Does cubase have midi clock in sync? I would love to use the mbseq as master for this.

No the versions of Cubase and Logic I use both do not support syncing to external MIDI Clock. AFAIK the main reason for this is that MIDI Clock is not high resolution enough to easily sync their audio engines to. On the other hand, MIDI Timecode is still supported as an external sync source by the majority of DAWs. This is a higher resolution form of sync.

@TK:

I would be interested if MBSeq could be setup to transmit MIDI Timecode. Would this get us tighter sync between MBSeq and DAWs? I much prefer the idea of MBSeq being master of sync in my studio than any computer :)

David

ps: I think with this question

TK can we get more nodes please?

it may not be so necessary. As far as I understand it, the nodes represent physical MIDI ins and outs. Each of these carries 16 MIDI channels, so you shouldn't run out separate channels for your synths. In fact with the list of nodes set up as you listed in your post, you would have 16 * 4 = 64 channels, I think :) Hope that helps...

[Hawkeye]

It was a pleasure, mono... the seq somehow magically gets more powerful every day, i hardly turn the computer on anymore ;-).

Optimum setup for me (if i would produce real tracks and not only do quick demos) would be to use the seq as a main workhorse and have a good multichannel recorder "synced" to the seq, creating audio snipplets for all relevant synth channels, which then would be assembled and mastered via computer later on, on a audio workstation with a big screen (two phased workflow).

Best regards,

Peter

[monokinetic]

I have been thinking about this and thought it would be better to keep the info in this thread rather than starting a new one. Anyway, I would like to ask:

Would there be "better" sync between MBSeq and a DAW if MIDI timecode (MTC) was used? (I don't have any sync issues so far, but it would interest me if MTC would be tighter than Midiclock)

If there would be an advantage to making MBSeq a MTC master, would it be possible to implement at some point?

Cheers

David

[nebula]

MTC is only timecode. It is not tempo-aware, so if there are tempo changes on your SEQ you would need to program them into your DAW.

Logic users might benefit from MB-SEQ MTC output, though. Since version 8 it will no longer sync to MIDI clock, but it will lock to MTC.

[TK.]

Beside of the issue mentioned by Nebula, there is another reason why MTC isn't suitable for a "real" step sequencer like MBSEQ:

the song position isn't part of the MTC protocol as well. If you select any point of time in your DAW, it's (almost) impossible to determine the new step positions without processing all steps from tick 0 to the new tick derived from the time, especially because tracks could be played backward, or with a progression algorithm...

This results into unwanted delays.

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[monokinetic]

Aha, thanks a lot TK, that's very interesting. So it sounds like we already have the tightest syncing sequencer around :D

Cheers

David