MIDIbox SEQ: next attempt

[TK.]

Hi,

you can be sure that a perfectly working CV function for external access to the AOUT module will be provided.

Why? Because I also own a Simplesizer ;D (but it is not ready yet... some components are missing)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[der.warst]

Aaaaallright!!! ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

[goyousalukis]

I can't wait to make this project, unfortunately I have to because I am stuck in South Korea for a year without access to my electronic equipment. I do have a request if feasible. Is it possible to implement a few presets that could be applied to a specific track? For instance - increasing, decreasing, alternating, random. This would be good for effects and filters. Great job Thorsten  - you continue to amaze me with your dedication to these projects!

Justin

[pay_c]

Simplesizer? What´s that?   ???

I missed something there for sure. Gimme an adress or homepage or something! PLS!  :D

[der.warst]

it's some Guys who started a DIY project to build a simple synthesizer in their Forum.

www.elektro-kartell.de

http://www.sequencer.de/forumsynth/simplesizer.html

I just mailed thomas from anyware instruments who made the PCBs and he told me that he will order new ones in about 2 or 3 weeks, so if you want one, this is your chance! the cost for a PCB was 21 € incl. shipping in Germany and the parts cost something around 50 €. Where else do you get an analog one for this price?

Warstwarstwarst ;D

[pay_c]

Making the PCB by myself...  ;D

About 3-4 Euros...  ;)

[pay_c]

Lil' question about the Encs again:

What Encs do you recommend TK? Those schuricht.de ones?

If I know that I'll also start building the CS within the next time (got sooo much ideas to bring in there...).  :)

[TK.]

only requirement: they should be detented!

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[DriftZ]

only requirement: they should be detented!

eeep! so my nondetented stec16's are not gonna work with the mios sequencer ?  ???

[TK.]

Hi DriftZ,

I wrote they should be detented and not they have to be detented.

Of course, MIOS provides three types, and all are working. But for a sequencer, where you want to select the notes exactly and not "smoothly", detented encoders are really the prefered ones. Therefore only this type is my recommentation (and I wrote about this several times...)

For pots I solved this "problem" by reducing the value range from 128 to 32 (the transpose function has to be used to select the octaves). This function could also be used for non-detented encoders, but this is only some kind of workaround and not what you really want for a sequencer.

Best Regards, Thorsten.

P.S.: today I received the panel from Schaeffer --- every part fits perfectly! :)

[DriftZ]

Aah OK, understood, thanks  :)

But I got a few other questions or things that I would like to have confirmed before I start to build something impossible:

I was thinking of doing a mios sequencer with 4x  '16button&led-rows', 1 for each track. This would be well possible in the miosseq application, right ?

Further, is there any code-space left for e.g. a 3x7segment BPM or PATTERN display ?

best wishes,

DriftZ

[TK.]

Hi,

both is possible. There are about 2k free for additional stuff (for a PIC this is a lot of memory!). The (optional) 64 LEDs can be connected to a LED matrix like known from MIDIbox SID: 4x16. For the buttons you need seperate DIN inputs

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[TK.]

Btw.: I just remember that non-detented encoders for the steps are also fine when at least a datawheel with detented encoder is connected - because the current step (modified with an encoder or button) is automatically controlable with the datawheel (or Inc/Dec button) - however, this is something like a workaround as well

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[DriftZ]

Great, tnx for the answers  ;)

oh btw

64 LEDs can be connected to a LED matrix like known from MIDIbox SID: 4x16

If my explanation makes any sense:

Does it matter whether you use 4 rows of 16 leds (=4 resistors) or 16 columns of 4 leds (=16 resistors) ?

[Marcel]

Hi TK,

Unfortunately I'm still nowhere near to getting a manual for that Zyklus MIDI Performance System, although I managed to track down 2 people that own one, but they don't seem to have time to copy/scan the manual  ::)

In the meantime, I found a thread on the Sound on Sound forum where the Admin had to say the following about the Zyklus:

ANIMATION — superimpose rhythmic/harmonic patterns on live playing or vice-versa.

AUTOMATION — comprehensivemanagement of MIDI synthesizers and outboard equipment.

IMPROVISATION — spectacular real-time control from MIDI keyboard or other source.

HARMONISATION — simultaneous multiple transpositions of recorded MIDI data.

EXPERIMENTATION — combine and manipulate rhythms, chords, phrases, ideas to explore all musical possibilities.

It cost £1995 inc VAT in 1988.  Vangelis owned one and used it during a concert in Athens in 1987, according to the article.

Reading the article, the MPS was a "sequencer of sequences", ie. you record sequences from a MIDI keyboard or in step time, then use the 12 blue selector buttons on the front panel to trigger the sequences you have saved in memories. It offered 1/96th-note resolution on sequences (not much by today's standards), time signatures of between 1/2 and 32/8. You could shift the start point of any sequences you record, transpose them, randomise them, and trigger them all in real-time while making tempo changes (if desired) with the built-in jog wheel. You could also lock an already running sequence (ie. loop it and fix its pitch) and free up one of the 12 blue control buttons to trigger another sequence memory... and the whole of your performance could be recorded into the MPS while playing it back and making real-time adjustments to its controls/buttons.

It sounds like it's similar to using Touch Tracks in Logic, or one of the Grooveboxes Roland, Korg and Yamaha make, but restricted to MIDI sound sources not samples.

There are some nice features like the ability to set any sequence you record to Repeat(Loop), Single-Shot (Play once) or Hold At End (play through sequence and hold the final note (or chord) indefinitely so that you can sequence over the backing.

1 MIDI In

4 MIDI Outs

3 footswitches

1 Trigger in

1 Gate out

1 Metronome out

99 sequences could be stored

24 configurations

12 performances

Note capacity 9,000 !!!!

Battery-backed memory with a data cartridge connector

So I'm still working on getting a copy of the manual, which proves to be a bit difficult. Makes me wonder how hard it would be to actually buy a Zyklus  ;)

For the whole thread on the Sound on Sound forum, click here

http://sound-on-sound2.infopop.net/2/OpenTopic?a=tpc&s=215094572&f=4193088013&m=474100661

Cheers,

Marcel

[TK.]

Hi Marcel,

I found a lot of marketing paroles, but a detailed description about the functions and the user interface is unfortunately missing. I definitely need them to estimate which features can also flew into the MIDIbox SEQ :-)

It will be difficult to combine a Zyklus-like processing engine with the MBSEQ engine, since I guess that the data handling is very different . E.g., the way how the MBSEQ stores and morphs arpeggio textures is unique today and gives its very own results - I don't want to remove such concepts which have been optimized in the last years...

Therefore it will possibly result into an alternative application for the MIDIbox SEQ hardware (good news for MIDIbox SEQ users: it will be possible to switch between the two sequencers within 10 seconds by uploading the appr. .syx file), so that no existing feature get lost. But before I have to get an exact image about how Zyklus is working. So, keep me informed :)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[sil909]

There is a little information in Barry Klein's book

"Musical applications of microprocessors" regarding the Zyklus. It did give me a little insight into its workings tho.  When I get back from my business trip i will dig up the info and post it.

[moebius]

TK,

Please, what 'bout those:

"one octave keyboard  BUTTONS"

"oct. transpose plus/minus  BUTTONS

"step forw./back  BUTTONS

"step delete <- BUTTON

"(16tnh, but under->) slide "BUTTON"

Sorry, haven't tweaked like you,

so I'd like to have those :),

Bye Moebius

[Marcel]

The designer of the Zyklus, Bill Marshall, gave an answer in the same thread of the Sound-On-Sound forum (see my previous post). Hopefully it will give you a better idea of the Zyklus while I hunt for a complete manual ;D

I have been reading your forum with interest and I thought I would clarify some things for you about the Zyklus MPS and Vangelis's Direct sequencer.

First, the Zyklus MPS was designed by Pete Kellock and myself in the mid 1980's at a time when personal computers were totally incapable of doing any serious music work. We wanted to build a system that was particularly suited to live performance and was built to withstand the rigours of the road. Basically, the Zyklus MPS allowed you to record up to 12 musical fragments per configuration (24 configs in total) and to be able to play any of these fragments polyphonically, 'as-is' or in rapid one-shot style from the keyboard. There were umpteen methods of triggering these fragments and this even extended to the point of being able to loop and trigger them on the beat (not the bar) and asynchronously if preferred, building up huge complex rhythms, transposing the lot and collapsing them back down to simpler phrases, changing the entire sound set in the process. The important thing is that this could all happen in real time as your imagination took you.

There were two drawbacks to this process. The first was that the little musical fragments needed to be prerecorded (ideally) and the second issue was that although you could get some incredible stuff happening, being able to reproduce it exactly from performance to performance was very difficult because triggering something on the beat or off the beat could give profoundly different results. I still have recordings from half a dozen people who were each given the same pre-loaded material and asked to come up with something, and this resulted in six pieces of music that were totally different, and I mean totally different.

Because of the small quantities and build quality of the Zyklus, it was too expensive, and some may say radical, for its time. Nobody seemed to see the potential in being able to trigger tracks or phrases at any time or pitch and seemed to prefer their sequencers to be electronic equivalents of tape. We were thus unable to make a living from this and the uptake of the Atari ST and the resulting music software really killed it.

I then went to work for Vangelis, designing a number of stage and studio items. During this period, I designed the functionality of the Direct sequencer along with Pete Kellock from my Zyklus days. Reading back on this and other forums regarding what Direct is and is not is quite entertaining so I will put the record straight. First of all, however, there are a couple of functions on Direct which I cannot talk about and no, nothing exists quite like these functions to this day, which is a pity.

At its most basic, Direct is a series of 8 independent synth controllers whereby Vangelis could switch any one synth (or zone) on or off without note hanging. This is incredibly more useful than it seems and it amazes me that so few people see the potential in this. You could create arpeggios live, have any of them replayed at any master tempo multiple, transpose it, change the sound, etc. all in real time. So it's an eight channel arpeggiator whereas the Zyklus didn't do arpeggiation at all. Well, partly, because you could also record sequences live as well and not only that but have the sequences you recorded arpeggiated as well, without 'wrong' notes occuring. The amazing potential came when you took the timing and other things from one replaying channel and superimposed it on one or more channels. Doesn't sound like much but this could be done easily; that is the purpose of the knobs on Direct - there are no hidden menus here. Above all it was reproducable.

It is very difficult to describe the musical results from eight independent arpeggiators, all playing at different but synchronised rates and in one or more ways being dependent on each other. Change something on one arpeggio or sequence and you get a chain reaction... I trust you see what I am getting at. The main difference between Zyklus and Direct is that Direct addresses the shortcomings of actually recording live with an empty machine and is less likely to produce results that seem out of control. What Direct is NOT is auto-accompaniment and does not rely on prerecorded lookup tables that adapt to your playing as the Korg Karma does. The results from the Karma and Direct and Zyklus are very different. There is in fact, very little crossover of fuctionality.

I think the biggest problem in today's music market is that we experimenters are very much a minority. I think that the Zyklus unit had a user interface problem that was addressed to a large extent with Direct, but having spoken to many many keyboard players, describing what these systems do results in a glassy stare. People work in their own ways and ultimately, one has to produce something that can adapt to these working methods and not require a total change of perspective. I don't believe that in today's market, an upgraded version of Zyklus/Direct would sell at any price. The main reason for replying to this forum is my attempt to guage reaction to the possibility of me releasing a software version instead. I have been toying with the idea for years and even considered producing a master keyboard controller for large synth rigs with all this instant, hands-on standard and experimental stuff built in. The technology is there. Is the market? A software version may be a good way of finding out...

Sounds interesting IMHO :)

Interesting enough to spark off a vigourous search for that manual  ;D

[moxi]

Hi,

both is possible. There are about 2k free for additional stuff (for a PIC this is a lot of memory!). The (optional) 64 LEDs can be connected to a LED matrix like known from MIDIbox SID: 4x16. For the buttons you need seperate DIN inputs

Best Regards, Thorsten.

Maybe someone could tell me how to connect the 3 other rows of buttons to the second din , and what changes must be done in the mios?

[Marcel]

Hiya,

Don't know if you still would be interested, but Bill Marshall  has made a scanned manual of the Zyklus available on his website

http://www.vyla.co.uk

Cheers,

Marcel

[TK.]

Thanks Marcel - a lot of stuff to read!

Best Regards, Thorsten.