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Is this possible?


Cow_Patty

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Hi! So I have been coming on and off for some time (maybe since 2012) reading, investigating, getting ideas, because I want to build a controller similar to a BCR2000 that will do what I need.

I have my BCR2000 since 2011, still in use, but it was obvious, pretty soon, that it lacked the feedback I need. Feedback as info about what is happening. Leds are insufficient and to just have numbers only from 0...127 is a pain, when I need to see numbers and figures like "Hz" or "3/4" or "a sine symbol", "parameter name", "Instrument number/name".

So, here I am. MB_NG is now quite advanced and I've also reached a point where I have to ask questions to fill my lack of knowledge and findings of what is possible to do in MB_NG so I can conclude my idea and start doing.

For now there is no need to be technical, I haven't started the project, so I don't have any hardware, nor do I know programming. When the time to go more in depth arrives I will ask. So bear with me. :rolleyes:

 

Questions (please answer with question number to avoid confusion):


1.1-

Usually values are presented from "0...127", so 128 positions. In the BCR2000 I can program for less than "0...127" (128), ex: "0...100" (101) or "0...3" (4) or "0...9" (10). Can I program for more, ex: "0...999" (1000) or "0.0...999.9" (1000.0) or "0...9999" (10000), even at the cost of various turns of the encoder?

I'm referring to the values/pulses/positions (whatever the name, and I mix them here, sorry) on the code for the encoder, not physical pulses of the encoder. I think its called MIDI messages or Channel Control Change messages?!

Why would I want that? Well, precision. Precision for the value of a parameter (automation of point/vector of that parameter included). I use cubase, and back in SX3 version I remember something like "6xxxxx,xxxx" possible positions, maybe NRPN values "16,384"?! It could have been, but I remember more decimal houses. The current cubase has "1000.0" positions. When I want a certain number, I want the exact number, not an approximation. Take frequencies as an example, 128 positions and I'm bound to approximations that are far from being near the value I want.

1.2-

Do the physical pulses of an encoder have any influence on this?

1.3-

Assuming that there is no way of changing the format of "0...127" positions, can I assign specific values (cubase values "0...1000.0") to specific positions (encoder code positions "0...127"), ex: cubase value "745.3" to encoder code position "86"? Also have this translated to the actual parameter value, ex: "hz".

2-

Given that 128 encoders are used and in use (ex: controlling vst parameters) can one of them still be used for Standard Control Surface menu system (by pressing "exit" or "shift" button) and of course still be programmed for a parameter?

In the BCR2000 one just selects the encoder and rotate the various controls, that are assigned from fabric, even if the encoder being programmed is one of the assigned controls.

3.1-

Is it possible to create shortcut buttons that directly call for an entire preset instead of having to go select one from SD memory card, through the Standard Control Surface menu system?

3.2-

If yes, is it also possible to assign those shortcut buttons to a parameter of the DAW (one button executing 2 functions at the same time)?

4-

Banks, do they have a limited number?

5-

Is it possible to Bank Banks? :decayed: ex: Lets say I have one group of physical encoders with 2 banks and another group of physical encoders also with 2 banks, so each group can change banks independently. Can I have a 3rd, global bank, that by selecting bank 1 it selects both banks 1 of the two groups of encoders?

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10 minutes ago, Cow_Patty said:

Humm... is that so?

And if there is some design thing I would like to be different, will I be able to change?

You could get the PCBs you want and incorporate them into your own controller. Everything will keep the typical compatibility. 

 

10 minutes ago, Cow_Patty said:

And what modules will be secure to go ahead and get for now?

midiphy stuff is not final yet, but should be an encoder board and core. 

 

10 minutes ago, Cow_Patty said:

I'm still very tempted to do my own...

Go for it! 

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My very first post and I already have two MIDIbox Gurus here. But still no answers! Instead, it was hijacked for ads. Basically.

Are my questions so unintelligent that don't even deserve an answer?!

Do you guys just don't like newbies?! Aren't forums not only to share ideas but also to provide info?!

I still have my idea, that's been cooking for ages in this dense head of mine. I'm still game, even if that project comes and I change my mind, I'm not worried. I'll still do it.

Again, what I asked for is just to know if its possible. So I can start making preparations.

I hope I didn't came as a rude, but I think it was necessary.

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Alright, I'll bite :)

Just now, Cow_Patty said:

My very first post and I already have two MIDIbox Gurus here. But still no answers! Instead, it was hijacked for ads. Basically.

From personal experience, these sort of retrofits to existing hardware never lead anywhere. In fact I have had a BCR2000 in pieces for many years. It is possible to hack it and turn it into a MIDIbox but you will have to understand the layout, connections and so on. It sounds like you don't really have the skills for that, hence I recommended an alternative that would probably accomplish what you are after. If you do have the skills, then I apologise in advance, but it doesn't sound like it from your post.

 

Just now, Cow_Patty said:

Are my questions so unintelligent that don't even deserve an answer?!

Many of your questions demonstrate a lack of understanding on basic MIDI protocol. Most of the others could be answered by working through the MB_NG pages: http://ucapps.de/midibox_ng_manual_fs.html

 

Just now, Cow_Patty said:

Do you guys just don't like newbies?! Aren't forums not only to share ideas but also to provide info?!

Well you got an extra response out of me, but please be patient when starting out. I know you're probably eager to get started. 

 

Just now, Cow_Patty said:

I still have my idea, that's been cooking for ages in this dense head of mine. I'm still game, even if that project comes and I change my mind, I'm not worried. I'll still do it.

History shows that if an idea is too difficult to follow through on (hacking a controller, overly ambitious project etc.), 99% of the time the person doesn't complete the build and never comes back.

 

Just now, Cow_Patty said:

Again, what I asked for is just to know if its possible. So I can start making preparations.

Anything is possible if you have the skill and patience to do it.

 

Just now, Cow_Patty said:

I hope I didn't came as a rude, but I think it was necessary.

You could refine your questions. It is a big block of text to read through straight out of the blocks.

Here are answers to your questions:

1.1 NRPN
1.2 Incremental encoders
1.3 http://ucapps.de/midibox_ng_manual_ngl.html
2.0 Yes
3.1 http://ucapps.de/midibox_ng_manual_ngr.html
3.2 Yes
4.0 Yes
5.0 Not sure, but ProgrammA will use a concept of superbanks

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Thanks. :D

 

2 hours ago, latigid on said:

From personal experience, these sort of retrofits to existing hardware never lead anywhere. In fact I have had a BCR2000 in pieces for many years. It is possible to hack it and turn it into a MIDIbox but you will have to understand the layout, connections and so on. It sounds like you don't really have the skills for that, hence I recommended an alternative that would probably accomplish what you are after. If you do have the skills, then I apologise in advance, but it doesn't sound like it from your post.

I never said I would temper with my BCR2000. Its working fine. Its my "precious", and I'm not going to ruin a perfectly working device.

 

2 hours ago, latigid on said:

Many of your questions demonstrate a lack of understanding on basic MIDI protocol. Most of the others could be answered by working through the MB_NG pages: http://ucapps.de/midibox_ng_manual_fs.html

...

You could refine your questions. It is a big block of text to read through straight out of the blocks.

I'm conscious of that. I was pretty straight forward, I did said I lacked the knowledge, and that I would make better questions when it was time.

"For now there is no need to be technical, I haven't started the project, so I don't have any hardware, nor do I know programming. When the time to go more in depth arrives I will ask. So bear with me."

 

2 hours ago, latigid on said:

Well you got an extra response out of me, but please be patient when starting out. I know you're probably eager to get started. 

Well since I already had someone come here I couldn't waste the opportunity. I am aware that some posts take a long time to have a response. Thank you for also being patient.

 

2 hours ago, latigid on said:

Here are answers to your questions:

1.1 NRPN
1.2 Incremental encoders
1.3 http://ucapps.de/midibox_ng_manual_ngl.html
2.0 Yes
3.1 http://ucapps.de/midibox_ng_manual_ngr.html
3.2 Yes
4.0 Yes
5.0 Not sure, but ProgrammA will use a concept of superbanks

Many thanks!

About question 4, the manual says: "You will need 4 buttons to switch between banks...". But it doesn't say I'm restricted to only 4 banks. So if you say "yes" to my question, that means 4 banks is the limit.

 

2 hours ago, latigid on said:

History shows that if an idea is too difficult to follow through on (hacking a controller, overly ambitious project etc.), 99% of the time the person doesn't complete the build and never comes back.

 

Anything is possible if you have the skill and patience to do it.

Again, I have no intention of tempering with my BCR2000.

An experience is never wasted!

 

About what I have in mind, it would be something like this:

IMG_20190921_150236.jpg.d308795cd43eb7fc

Banks are all groups of 4 buttons on the sides. All banks would be independent from other groups of (bank-buttons) or (bank-encoders).

But if the limit is only 4 banks...This would no longer be possible.

This easily avoids conflicts of having to keep weird parameter grouping, just to be able to turn whatever parameter needed at a certain time. In other words, one could easily play with any parameter without conflict of position and have better organisation.

 

In the top double button row, each 8 buttons would have 2 banks.

 

For the encoders, each 4 encoders would have 4 banks. This way it would max the 128 possible encoders.

 

In the bottom row would be, from left to right:

8 shortcuts that would directly call for a preset from SD memory;

2 global banks for the buttons, and 4 global buttons for the encoders. This way one would be able to select, for example: bank 1 for all encoders.

SCS controls. Maybe redundant, maybe useful to have. I don't know if it would be possible to have that 33rd encoder or that 33dr display.

 

This is what I have been cooking. Care to give an opinion?

 

And again, thanks.

Edited by Cow_Patty
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As far as I know the maximum allowed number of banks is 127. So this shouldn't be a problem. 

You want 33 OLEDs? This is definitely nothing easy to do. You need to take care of the clock pin when doing the PCB layout. Nothing you can do on breadboard. Also you'd need a separate power supply for it. 

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@Cow_Patty ah, I see that I misinterpreted your post, I figured that you wanted to bolt on displays to a BCR2000, now I read that you want to replicate/extend it. I think your idea is feasible and it looks quite similar to what is planned for v2. By all means, go for it as this is what MIDIbox is all about.

The limit of banks is 255 I think, just they need a method of selecting them.

@FantomXR no firm release date yet, anything in mind from your side?

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30 minutes ago, FantomXR said:

As far as I know the maximum allowed number of banks is 127. So this shouldn't be a problem. 

Golden on the banks! :happy:

 

30 minutes ago, FantomXR said:

You want 33 OLEDs?

I can definitely forsaken the 33rd OLED and have the SCS emulated.

 

Thanks Man!

The thing is for me to have a general understanding of whats is possible. So I can get the hardware and then start working the rest (coding and prototyping). Then I will get to more in depth questions.

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12 minutes ago, latigid on said:

...you want to replicate/extend it...

That's it!

12 minutes ago, latigid on said:

The limit of banks is 255 I think, just they need a method of selecting them.

255 Platinum!! :grin:

 

More than happy that this project is achievable.

 

I probably should have started with what was on my mind.

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