Midibox approach to live sound reinforcement

[gillspice]

I would like to use a midibox for live sound reinforcement. 

My basic idea is to use a rackmount PC on stage, with a PCI multiple I/O soundcard (such as a delta 1010lt, or several of them if more I/O is needed).  All of the onstage mics would go into the PC, where all the mixing and signal processing would take place, then the mixdown outputs would come out, and would go into power amps in the same rack, and out to speakers.  So really the mixer would be on stage, but it would be controlled remotely using a midibox.

I figure that the onstage PC will have no monitor, but will have a wireless ethernet connection to a laptop.  UltraVNC could be used on the laptop to remotely control the onstage PC.  The Midibox would connect via midi to the laptop, and then ipMidi could be used in order to achieve MIDI over IP so that the midi box could control the mixing ap on the stage PC remotely.

So basically it would be kind of like having a traditional mixer with a wireless snake, only the audio itself wouldn't actually leave the stage.

As far as the mixing program used on the stage, virtual console could be used, or cubase or whatever.

It seems to me that the only missing link in this idea is a set of MIDI controlled mic preamps, since the soundcard inputs would be line level.  I have started on a design for a MIDI controled preamp that will use a midibox core, DOUT, and a TI INA217 chip for the mic pre.

Does this idea appeal to anyone else? 

[Digineural]

This is a rather interesting concept.  I recently build a sound booth in the back of a local facility and ran a snake to the front where the speakers were and ended up spending $500(US) for the booth and snake alone.  This methodolgy could have saved a ton of money considering the few rack components I was using. 

On that note.  Do you plan on MIDIfying any other rack components other than the preamps?  It would be rather interesting to use motorized pots or encoders to remotely control guitar amps, pedals, etc as well ... assuming the individual units have enough space.

UltraVNC may be too slow for realtime and the wireless network will make it work even slower.  Then again, it may not be noticable unless your a realtime truest.  I think there would be some noticable latency though when routing audio strickly through a PC.  You may want to consider a server or something high performance.  Either way, I'd be rather interested in your results.

[Sinnsyk]

Perhaps it's an idea to give the band members complete control over their own monitors. So that u build some knobs/faders in each monitor, that connect to a central core unit, and they controle the software mixer that controls the output on the monitor. If u go digital, do it good  ;D

[gillspice]

Having monitor mix controls for each band member is a great idea!  That would be a huge benefit without adding much complexity to the system as a whole.  Really the only additional work would be contructing the control panels.

[Sinnsyk]

Thank you  :)

I think performance on stage could be more perfect, this kind of ideas will increase comfort on stage :)

Imagine, every band member with a guitar plug in at one machine, they choose their own sound from a preset of like 200 guitar-amps, and it will be mixed over their monitors and main-speakers, without the complexity of their own amps disturbing monitors or microphones.

Total control on stage!

I'm looking forward for some pics if u finish your project :)

[doc]

Just a sitenote:

You could use a RME Multiface as "Soundcard", so you have the Total recall mixer (and 0-latency!!)

Then you connect e.g a behringer ADA8000 via ADAT/SPDIF and you have 16 Ins/Outs,  8 Ins with mic preamp . Totally controlled by a Midibox LC (Total recall fully supports our midiboxes). I tested it. It works great and you don't need a "big" sequenzer software  like cubase just for the mix. Another benefit is the monitoring feature in the total control mixer. You can route signals much more comfortabler than with analog desks.

I'm using this setup in my studio. I must say, this could also be a solution for a life gig.

But I still prefer old analog stuff on the stage (.... no bluescreens and exeption errors during a gig !)

The only thing is: You don't have midi-controlled EQ's. But I'm sure theres also an solution ... e.g. Reason 3.0 ...

greets

Doc

[gillspice]

Correct me if I am wrong, but it doesn't look like the gain of the preamps on the ADA8000 can be adjusted remotely.

[doc]

Correct me if I am wrong, but it doesn't look like the gain of the preamps on the ADA8000 can be adjusted remotely.

You're right. The gain is mainly controlled at the front panel. But you can control the input signal afterwards in the total control mixer of the multiface.

Under normal circumstances at a life performance you regulate the gain at the soundcheck and you normally don't have to change it. But you are able to control the input signal (or output signal after routing).

greets

Doc

[gillspice]

My goal with making a set of preamps with a MIDI gain control is so that I don't have to have someone on stage to adjust the gain during soundcheck, and also so that gain settings can be stored and recalled.

[gillspice]

On that note.  Do you plan on MIDIfying any other rack components other than the preamps?  It would be rather interesting to use motorized pots or encoders to remotely control guitar amps, pedals, etc as well ... assuming the individual units have enough space.

I intend the system to be generic, meaning not specific to one group of performers, so no, I don't have plans to get into MIDI controlled guitar gear.

[gillspice]

Imagine, every band member with a guitar plug in at one machine, they choose their own sound from a preset of like 200 guitar-amps, and it will be mixed over their monitors and main-speakers, without the complexity of their own amps disturbing monitors or microphones.

Total control on stage!

That would be a dream come true from a soundguy's point of view.  Convincing the musicians of the value would most likely be a whole different ball of wax....."You want me to leave my marshall stack at home and plug into what?!?"

[Screaming_Rabbit]

At this time, I just would say forget it. - Forget it without dedicated DSP-Hardware.

Insert Quote

Quote from: Sinnsyk on Today at 18:18

Imagine, every band member with a guitar plug in at one machine, they choose their own sound from a preset of like 200 guitar-amps, and it will be mixed over their monitors and main-speakers, without the complexity of their own amps disturbing monitors or microphones.

Total control on stage!

That would be a dream come true from a soundguy's point of view.  Convincing the musicians of the value would most likely be a whole different ball of wax....."You want me to leave my marshall stack at home and plug into what?!?"

... exactly. Call me a guitarist who will plug into a virtual guitar rig he doesn't know, when he has a gig  ::)

You could use a RME Multiface as "Soundcard", so you have the Total recall mixer (and 0-latency!!)

Then you connect e.g a behringer ADA8000 via ADAT/SPDIF and you have 16 Ins/Outs,  8 Ins with mic preamp . Totally controlled by a Midibox LC (Total recall fully supports our midiboxes). I tested it. It works great and you don't need a "big" sequenzer software  like cubase just for the mix. Another benefit is the monitoring feature in the total control mixer. You can route signals much more comfortabler than with analog desks.

... and where do we insert the PlugIns?

Under normal circumstances at a life performance you regulate the gain at the soundcheck and you normally don't have to change it.

... ohhh yes you still have to. The bands don't play their whole set on soundcheck... and suddenly the overload appears. I wouldn't even touch a FOH mixer, when the pres ain't controllable. And what do you do, when you have more than one band... just linechecks between them?

These http://www.studer.ch/pdf/flyers/(1)%20D21m%20Brochure%20(09-11-05)hr.pdf (see page 17) are remote controllable (not MIDI) but from a PC... but if you need the whole rack filled with PreAmps for a live setup, you won't buy a new car this year  ;D. You could use a RME-MADI card to connect to your controller PC.

Greets, Roger

[DrBunsen]

If you want low latency, don't use Windows :)  Sorry, not bashing, just a known fact.

If the boxes at both ends are running Unix/BSD/Linux, you can use X11's built in remote windowing feature (forget what it's called).  Any window can represent a process running on any box on the network.

If you want access to lots of stable, high quality apps and plugins and compatible hardware, and setting up Linux for audio is out of your league *, might I suggest a pair of Macs? A Mini (around $6-700) for the stagebox and either another Mini or a Macbook for the mixing desk.  Firewire and/or USB audio interfaces.

Whichever platform you decide on. there are ways of running plugins on both boxes and passing audio between them over the network.  Your control console can then add some extra VST grunt.

I've considered this exact plan, and yes it was the price of multicore looms that started me thinking.

* Linux audio configuration is of most people's league apparently, though it's gotten easier lately :)

[smashtv]

The bands don't play their whole set on soundcheck... and suddenly the overload appears. I wouldn't even touch a FOH mixer, when the pres ain't controllable.

I have to agree here.....set and forget is not the way of a pro FOH engineer, you would end up either under-utilizing the system or trying to make up huge amounts of gain in the subgroups if the trims are set where they will never peak.  Live sound just has too much dynamic range for this.

Don't take this as a vote of no confidence though, gain/trim can be done via remote, as long as there is visual feedback for signal level(s) at FOH.  The ideal situation would be a meter per channel that is switchable between input level, insert input level, insert output level, bus feed level (PFL) etc. 

Any FOH console without at the very least per channel clip indicators is begging for a fader jockey to try to launch your compression drivers at the crowd.... ;)

Shifting gears to your outboard rack for a second.....digital compressors usually suck compared to the real thing.  And for the record an alesis dirty-six-dirty is not the real thing....  ;)

Shifting gears again to summing......nobody has figured out how to make a mix done in the 'puter sound like a mix done with an analog sum......digital per channel is great, but it loses some power, clarity, and soundfield spread when summed in the 'puter, especially when done in real time.  Don't waste time with digital for the summing when a handfull of 10k's making up a simple resistor sum/mixer will sound better.... ;)  (and yes, I have listened to xx software and none of it sounds right when compared to a mixdown on my yamaha or any other decent mixer)

Just my 2 cents after way too many shows at FOH and working to match that power/feel when recording.  ;)

Best

Smash

[stryd_one]

Any FOH console without at the very least per channel clip indicators is begging for a fader jockey to try to launch your compression drivers at the crowd.... ;)

Yeh don't you know how it works? Green = Go louder, Orange = Go louder, 1 red = Go louder, 2 red = Go louder, 3 red = Go louder.. never mind that funny sound.  ;)