Article in Computer Music/Future Music and dumb question

[DavidBanner]

Is it me or since that article in CM/FM (can't remember which one) has there been a lot of people asking really dumb/lazy questions because they blantantly haven't done the reading they need to?

is there a way to email the Noob 4 Dummies to ppl when they sign up for the forum? perhaps this could help ppl get the idea of how they should be starting out and using ucapps?

D

[doc]

I don't agree ....

the questions of the noobs are the same since this board exits. Thats why they are noob.

I think, it's still no problem to lead the guys "on the right way" after the first questions.

Give them a warm welcome ... cause we all started once in this forum with a silly question ... don't forget that!

greets

Doc

[DavidBanner]

I agree - and I'm definately all for helping out people;

what I'm talking about is questions that are blatently through being lazy...

I know I've had lots of advice and help from people, which I am most grateful for. But to be honest, quite often you'll learn a lot more researching the question (not to mention learning a whole lot of xtra stuff other than the current problem that comes in handy later).

what I'm talking about is questions like:

how do I burn the LC app onto the PIC using a PIC burner - which means they blatently haven't bothered reading the MIOS introduction documentation.

and

how do i connect buttons to the DINX4?

The point i'm trying to make is it might be nice to give ppl the heads up on the "Ucapps Best Practice", so they know what is expected from them, they don't expect too much from people and start getting the most from the community right from the off...

[carsten_the_dane]

Words from a noob  ;):

Its not long since i started posting in the forum, so i couldnt help but feel that i was one being spoken about. So naturally i had to say something on this subject.

I think your suggestion to post the noob sticky is really arrogant, but: i would think that it was a great idea to post some kind of introduction text along with registration info.

I had a hard time finding my way through all the info on ucapps + wiki. And to begin with, i just read one page at a time. Stuff like that, exactly as the sticky describes. But, even though the sticky is funny, its a really bad idea to send to noob.

But a text telling me about the wiki, the way ucapps is build, where to begin, how to post in forum etc. but not to long, just a few lines, otherwise it will just be ignored. I think

/Carsten

[carsten_the_dane]

I was actually the one posting the button question. And i can tell you that i used hours trying to find a solution, completely overlooking the correct PDF, that show the connection as it should be. I did find another PDF, that showed a somewhat similar connection, there from trying different combinations, i ended up with a positive answer.

Then days later, i found the correct PDF because i was ready to go to step C of the SID project.

But if you think its a stupid question, just dont bother answer it.

/Carsten

[DavidBanner]

Hey Carsten,

first off - let me say I'm not having a go at anyone in any negative way. Just thinking out loud with a possibly positive suggestion to get ppl started.

I think your suggestion to post the noob sticky is really arrogant

what makes you say that?

I found the noob sticky really helpful when I first came to ucapps. But what I actually meant (and didn't say) was something like the noob thing could be sent.

I had a hard time finding my way through all the info on ucapps + wiki.

that's kind of the point; there is an awful lot of info and a lot to learn. It's a complex subject and you need a certain amount of dedication and commitment to finish a project.

[DavidBanner]

Carsten,

And i can tell you that i used hours trying to find a solution,

I spent WEEKS researching and going over and over stuff till I got my head around it....

A case in point is that I haven't finished my box because of the amount of planning and research that you need to put into the project before the build (well that and some newbie stupidity involving a cap round the wrong way), unless you want a whole lot more work down the line..

But if you think its a stupid question

only cause I thought it was due to lazyness

[doc]

It sounds like a good idea to tell the noobs the direction when they sign in the forum.

But I think, that is our part. Let them post a question, and we guide them on the right way.

I think, thats our part in the forum also.

It sounds much more friendly for the asker if he is getting a "personel" answer than a anonym list of things he has to do after signing in.

This way works now for years and a lot of "old" members formally started as noobs (all of us ...exept one ). I still remember my "warm" welcome. This is one reason, why this forum is one of the "friendliest" (oh boy my english ... sorry for that) I ever signed in.

I fully agree with Falkenberg:

Keep it friendly and personel even if it takes a little effort to hold that level.

And .. on the other hand ... some of those questions are really funny. It is not forbidden to laugh ... ;D

greets

Doc

[DavidBanner]

Carsten,

I was actually the one posting the button question.

Have you got 2 accounts on here? If not, you were definetly not the poster that prompted my msg.

[carsten_the_dane]

Oh ok. So maybe i just did another noob thing, and forgot to search the forum.

I have posted something similar

/Carsten

[DavidBanner]

hey doc,

I take your points on board and I'm in total agreement with your sentiment.

My take is like this:

Ever been to someone's house who likes ppl to take their shoes off at the door? Personally I much prefer being told before I get into the house, rather than being in the middle of their big white carpet in my big boots then being told - and then having to aplogise and feel a bit foolish despite not knowing any better.

It's one of those being polite by being upfront things - which is one of my favourite traits of the Dutch...

And once again I reiterate - I'm not having a moan at anyone, just thinking out loud...

[smashtv]

Hi guys!

What is happening is frustration on both sides....The "old schoolers" see the same questions over and over, most are covered between the forum+wiki+ucapps.de and have simple answers....The new guys usually come ready to learn but there is so much info here that it is hard to know what to read/learn next for some of them. 

Some show up with skills that allow them to fill in the knowledge not specifically covered here that they need to build, but many show up with no experience and the MIDIbox providing the push they need to learn some electronics skills.

So with that in mind, I ask: Should there be an all-inclusive step-by-step guide for each app assuming the builder knows nothing about electronics?  Would the builder learn more or less with this approach?

Just thinking/wondering out loud a little here.....  ;)

It puts a little perspective on things when you realize there is only one man on the planet who truly understands every aspect of the MIDIbox, the rest of us are all newbies in that light.  ;)

Wow I'm slow today! "Warning - while you were typing 6 new replies have been posted. You may wish to review your post." ..... No edits/review....I'll let it ride.  ;D

Best

Smash

[DavidBanner]

yay - it's another STVSLP (SmashTvSlightlyLengthyPost)....

Should there be an all-inclusive step-by-step guide for each app assuming the builder knows nothing about electronics?  Would the builder learn more or less with this approach?

Personally speaking, I think I've learnt lots doing the research. But the help provided by people such as yourself when i have got stuck has been absolutly amazing - there is little to no chance I'd be able to complete my project without it....

maybe a bullet pointed list and some links for the ultra new?

[carsten_the_dane]

Im with David some of the way. I think an introduction text would be great, as long as its not the Noob for dummies.

But a step-by-step. No, if you could a middle way, where you could avoid the most noob questions. FX. how the hell do you troubleshoot your circuit. That a question that comes up over and over i have seen, and there is a document about it somewhere. Those kinds of things would be great to have as an introduction.

Put some links together in the wiki, and link to the page in the intro email.

Link to articles like the "Basic electronics" sticky, troubleshooting all that stuff

OK, David posted while i was writing. Just wanna add to his, No step-by-step. what i have learned from the midibox project so far, i can defintely use when im going to build my Sound-lab mini synth in the new year. And step-by-steps wont make you learn anything

[edit]: ok that wasnt at all what david wrote. it went a little to fast :)

/carsten

[smashtv]

yay - it's another STVSLP (SmashTvSlightlyLengthyPost)....

hehe, I'm losing my touch, that one could be read in less than half a day!  ;D

maybe a bullet pointed list and some links for the ultra new?

You are on my brainwave on this.

step-by-steps wont make you learn anything

Also on my brainwave.

My apologies, I know the sudden lack of mental capacity (on my brainwave) hurts.....  :P  ;D

Best

Smash 

[AndrewMartens]

Give them a warm welcome ... cause we all started once in this forum with a silly question ... don't forget that!

Oh, come on doc!  I've never asked a silly question on this forum ever!  Sure, I've made silly suggestions, and had silly ideas, but silly questions?  Hah!  ;)

I can understand how it is difficult for new users to get going on a given MIDIbox project.  The only reason I have my head (mostly) wrapped around a lot of the MIDIbox designs is because I've been lurking on-and-off around these parts for several years now - and even then I only got around to finishing my SID a few weeks ago! 

Some of the information can be a bit tricky to locate, unless you're thorough and find the right PDF.  That said, the build info on ucapps is quite thorough, and searching the forum can fill in the gaps.  But still, it's a matter of knowing where to search (ucapps? the wiki? the forum?), and also how to search.  It's like soldering, or reading schematics - gathering and parsing information is just another skill to pick up.  Everyone will get there in time, and learn things.  As long as new users aren't demanding or rude, I see no reason to not respond to them warmly.

If you're getting fed up of the same old questions, just take a bit of a break - go and work on your next MIDIbox or make some music!  ;D

[doc]

What is happening is frustration on both sides....

No, I don't agree. It's not frustrating at all (sometimes amusing, but not frustrating!)

I remember discussing the same thing a long time ago.

maybe a bullet pointed list and some links for the ultra new?

You are on my brainwave on this.

Didn't such lists already exist on ucapps, the forum and the wiki?

The pain is (in my opinion) that there are to many sources for a single problem. If we start another section for noobs we ran in even more problems.

By the way. Wasn't there a section for noobs in the forum some time ago?

I still don't think it's frustrationg because if I don't wanna answer a question I read the next. No problem for me.

For new members it is sometimes quite goog if the same problems are repeating. They won't have to search so long in the forum for help.

Last but not least:

Should there be an all-inclusive step-by-step guide for each app assuming the builder knows nothing about electronics?  Would the builder learn more or less with this approach?

Strictly: No.

Some basic skills are essential. Otherwise we'll get very frustrationg threats. Examples you'll find in the german board.

It's quite simple: If you don't understand the basics of an airplane you'll never be able to fly by yourself. - But you can take in an airplane without knowing how to fly.

If you aren't able to find the airport.... you won't fly in any way  :o

greets

Doc

uuups... many quick writers here....

@AndrewMartens:

Give them a warm welcome ... cause we all started once in this forum with a silly question ... don't forget that!

Oh, come on doc!  I've never asked a silly question on this forum ever!  Sure, I've made silly suggestions, and had silly ideas, but silly questions?  Hah!  Wink

I'm sure I don't mean you directly. Sorry for that. I see, I don't use the right word (please replace silly with stupid - is this better ??? - hard to say in english!)

To make it right: We all startet in this forum with a silly(or stupid) question (except of AndrewMartens)...  ;)

[DavidBanner]

Quote

maybe a bullet pointed list and some links for the ultra new?

You are on my brainwave on this.

Didn't such lists already exist on ucapps, the forum and the wiki?

Maybe they just need to be easier to find? Or perhaps provide a start here link to a doc like the one suggested in the email when you sign

I can never find the noob for dummies post either...

[stryd_one]

Heh this is familliar ;)

[Sasha]

I think there is so meny perplexed information here, so It`s not strange newbies are lost and they are uploading app without bottstrap and MIOS or something. Personally, I still have trouble to find some documents i opened few times before without some digging. You have to scroll trough page to find a link. You know it was somewhere there but... lot of people I talked had trouble navigating the site. Offen it could be difference between success and failure!

Sure, it wouldn`t be right to expect TK do boring things like proper menues, submenues and add a new pages. He already have much to wright on project documentation, and it would be great lost of his precious energy and time. It would be better for all of us if he could do just fun stuff.  :)

I would like to conduct reorganisation (making pages, subpages, menues, making graphics...) of ucapps, based on some kind of docs and organisation scheme provided by TK or somebody else. As you see my english is bad so proper wrighting could be problem for me and i lack of programming knowledge. But I am willing to help.

I think it would be really good for all of us, if people could follow some steps. Even some are repeating on every page.

For each app should be steps like:

1. upload bootstrap with burner or order preburned PIC

2. upload MIOS using mios studio, upload application using mios studio

3. AIN - analog imputs (pots/faders) could be configured like this... example

and this kind of guide.

Linking words in page should be only addition not only link to proper page or document.

So, it would be nice to have Q/A about configuring every aplication on top of every aplications page so people could easier find right answer without searching meny posts which cannot be always directly related to the problem thay have. I had problems configuring MB64E app for using pots. I couldnt have same setings from my MB64 on MB64E + 2 additionall encoders for Traktor jogs.

Language barier could also be the problem finding usefull post.

Long time ago I was answered to meke change in the main.asm, but I couldn`t find it because the main.asm exist in avery package. I didn`t know that. If the name of the main.asm for MB64 vas mb64.asm there will be one less stupid question from my side. :-[

Forum could be used more for other than troubleshooting.

Sure basic electronic knowledge is essential, but I would never started with this project if I didn`t read "you can do it if you know which is the right side of soldering iron" I was confident after I read that but It took so much time and nervs just to eliminate critical components before i even started (JDM programmer killed me) I am probably heard about PIC here first time in life. I learned alot but still feels like i don`t know a sh** compering to much of people here.

Wiki could help, but scettering info could still be confusing to noobies because they read more information than they need to know for the start and they could loose in it.

If there is something I could do to help TK, I`m here. I have experience with web but im not one of the best midiboxers here even I`m not new att all.  ;)

[DavidBanner]

I've got the architecture and programming skills but absolutely no time (currrently working an average of 16 hours a day 7 days a week).

I'd love to help out where I can, however I need to make sure I don't commit to anything I can't deliver due to other commitments. Perhaps if I advise / give help where I can with other ppl doing the more time consuming stuff?