Wilba Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 With my latest MB-SID project in the final stages, and TK posting pictures of my PCB inside his C64 case, I thought I might post a bit of a blog about it.The PCB design is a prototype, only two were made (mine and the one I gave TK).There's lots of technical info in my the wiki pages:MB-6582 WikiWhile I designed this PCB just for me, it's quite usable by others with C64 cases (like TK) so I'm happy to make it available for others to order their own made, but this will have to wait until after I do some revisions (added CAN bus, removed IIC MIDI modules).I'm just about to order the panels, and then I can finally finish this off! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
visibleman Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 WOW!!!do you actually plan to release these for sale as kits?Can it use mixed 8580 / 6581 chips? Can it use less then 8 chips total? Like 2x 8580 + 2x 6581?Sorry for many questions, I'm overwhelmed with anxiety! (does this sound gay? 8) ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 :o That's beautifull !!Where did you get your pcb's printed ? Was it expensive ?Do you have a eagle pro license to do such a big board ? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrBunsen Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 Droooooool..... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasha Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 Man, that is great! I would like to have one. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
AndrewMartens Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 Well done, that's fantastic!You managed to find eight 6582 for the project? I used to have one around on an old C64 PCB, but it got misplaced sometime in the last 7 years... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaicen Posted January 24, 2007 Report Share Posted January 24, 2007 Wilba, that is a truly magnificent piece of work!If you intend to sell a run of these PCB's, then you can definitely 100% put me down for a set!Just one question though. When you say that the 4x cores are stereo SID modules, does that mean that you can have 8x poly with this design?? I'd love to hear what that sounds like playing a massive sawtooth chord! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilba Posted January 25, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 do you actually plan to release these for sale as kits?No. I'm not interested in making kits, this is a one-off project which might be duplicated by others. I will release the Gerber and NC drill files (the files you need to get PCBs made) and then others can arrange their own production. It might cost as little as US$50 per PCB. I got them made with Gold Phoenix PCB, check out their "Special Prices".Can it use mixed 8580 / 6581 chips? Can it use less then 8 chips total? Like 2x 8580 + 2x 6581?It can definitely use less than 8 SIDs, but this PCB is for 8580 or 6582 only (only 9v supply).In the next revision, I will replace the space allocated for IIC MIDI modules with a more flexible power supply section, so that 12v and 9v supply tracks run across the top. Each pair of SIDs could then be connected to either 12v or 9v.You managed to find eight 6582 for the project?I found a batch of new old stock. I will sell the spares soon.If you intend to sell a run of these PCB's...Not intended, but as I've said before, the design will be available so anyone can order their own "prototypes" made.When you say that the 4x cores are stereo SID modules, does that mean that you can have 8x poly with this design??It's currently using MB-SID v1 firmware, each stereo SID module plays the same sound out of each SID, but due to slightly different filter capacitors, it's not always identical sound, a lot of phasing happens when you LP filter something like "Techno PWM" patch. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
t_xen Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 *speechless..... :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Lall Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Waouw, amazing work!I think one can speak about Beauty when looking at this, simply...I quite like the concept of freezing the modularity at some point when the design is clear and fixed and then go for such a clean, "wireless" and kind of pro solution.Best regards,Lall Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryd_one Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 I gotta say... It's even nicer in real life. Totally awesome. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaicen Posted January 25, 2007 Report Share Posted January 25, 2007 Agreed!!I wonder if Smash would be interested in having a batch of PCB's made up?? I could live with sourcing the components myself if I could just get the PCB's. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilba Posted January 26, 2007 Author Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Good news: Smash and I are talking about getting a batch of PCBs made, which he can sell through his shop. It is still early stages yet, as MB-SID v2 is not finished. I will tweak the design a little, add the CAN bus and modify the PSU section so people can mix SIDs if they want. The three DOUT and five DIN modules are enough to support a "step C" control surface with a switch matrix and LED matrix. The placement of the jacks/ports at the back can't be perfect for everyone's current case (if they are upgrading) but as TK is demonstrating, it's good enough for a C64 case.Keep in mind that a single PCB can never be perfect for everybody, but I'll try to make it fairly useful for the majority of people who've built their current MB-SID into a C64 case or rack case.As for full "kits": depending on the interest, maybe a batch of the control surface PCB might get made, I don't know yet... there's no plans to turn this into a complete kit package like the x0xb0x... but people are more than welcome to copy my example, get the same parts I used and make one like mine. I just have to finish mine first... ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bill Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 Good news: Smash and I are talking about getting a batch of PCBs made, which he can sell through his shop.Bad news : with such a board, the sid chips are going to be out of stocks in a hurry ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaicen Posted January 26, 2007 Report Share Posted January 26, 2007 If you're going to go ahead and make a kit with the CS and the cores then can I be the first to put my name on the waiting list?? I need a 6xSID to use with my new guitar synth ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmenator Posted January 27, 2007 Report Share Posted January 27, 2007 Well, I guess chances are that it is not really feasible for Smash to provide a complete kit with all SIDs. But the PCB alone is something I would be very interested in, too!Best regards, ilmenator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaicen Posted January 27, 2007 Report Share Posted January 27, 2007 AFAIK, Smash has never provided a kit with SID's included. If he were to stock a PCB kit with the chips, caps and resistors (minus SID) all the better, but it's the PCB's that are the 'killer app' in my view. It vastly simplifies construction, and eliminates a great deal of possible wiring errors. Even if it was running MBSID V1.75 or whatever, i'd buy it today! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nu-Audio-Science Posted February 1, 2007 Report Share Posted February 1, 2007 Probably the coolest thing i have seen since i first found Ucapps way back when ;)Brilliant just brilliant Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilba Posted February 5, 2007 Author Report Share Posted February 5, 2007 I've updated the panel previews to the final version, what I've already ordered ;DNote: none of the differences to the original design are planned and official MB-SID V2 features! They're just what I would like in my MB-SID, and what I will code myself.In case anyone is interested, I'll list the differences to the V1 "step C" control surface:"Link" button replaced with "Sync". This will be my global toggle between internal BPM and sync to external MIDI clock. I want to easily switch between playing a bassline in time with the external sequencer, or during development when I just want to play it without the external sequencer running. TK agrees this is a Good Idea so I might not have to code this feature myself ;) BTW, the "Link" feature is obsolete with proposed hardware changes, using PIC18F4685 and a CAN bus to the slaves."Play" button: this will replace the "SID button + Menu button" to trigger playing a note on the SIDs.Extra buttons around menu encoder: The four to the right of the display I might use for fast selecting of a row on the display... maybe for the wavetable or sequencer pages. The buttons above and below the encoder are the "Menu" button and an undefined "extra" button for some feature I might want later.Matrix mode select button and LEDs: Pretty self-explanatory, switches matrix into the other modes, V1 lets you switch between the mod matrix and metering mode, and I've expanded that to the proposed extra matrix modes. The names "Mod 1" and "Mod 2" are generic on purpose.Filter Ext-In button: Since I plan to use the feedback idea (routing SID output through a pot into SID input), I wanted an easy way to toggle filtering of external in.Missing "O3" LED in filter section: If I had the space space, I would put it in, with its own button."Misc" mode in Envelope section: A second set of parameters for envelopes, as described in the V2 wishlist."Curve" buttons/LEDs: Originally this was "Curve Assign" like the V1 feature (but missing from the "step C" panel) so I added it. Now it might not be needed if there's a separate curve parameter per envelope phase! So it might be used for another purpose... perhaps to multi-select envelope phases and let the Curve knob change those curve parameters."Ramp" LFO waveform: I always wanted a ramp. I'll code it myself if I have to!The rear panel has a few "extras" too:Mixed output: Above the power switch/LED is a mixed audio output. If there are no plugs in the SID 1-4 audio jacks, the audio gets mixed through some 10K resistors. It's not that elegant a solution, but good enough for the times I just want to listen through headphones or plug it into someone else's amp or something.Expansion port: In case I ever get around to using external filters or external analog inputs (joysticks, ribbon controller) or whatever else I can dream up, I can wire it through this 25 pin sub-D. I think I'll make it female like a printer port.Four "feedback" knobs: The holes above the audio jacks will host four dual-gang 500K log pots, which attenuate the SID audio out on its way back into the SID. These can give effects like a resonance boost, self-oscillating filter, or distortion. They're log pots, so I still have to work out which way round they should go!Fan hole: I'm sticking a 40mm fan in that hole. It's half-bling and half-functional... a little breeze inside that small box might just prevent SID death on a 40ºC summer day. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilba Posted March 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 Time to blog again ;DI got the panels from FPE, but I had not accounted for their 0.4mm engravings to come out like 0.8mm, or the 0.2mm engravings to come out like 0.4mm. So while the small text was sort of OK, the large text (large in this case being 2mm high) had no gaps between letters, it was all a bit messy. Front Panel Express were great about it, I sent photos of what I expected (Front Panel Designer screenshot) and what I got, and they were more than happy to find out why it came out the way it did, and replace the panels. So I changed all text to 2mm high, 0.2mm thick DIN1451 font, and the replacement panels look fantastic.While I waited, I finally got some J-B Weld, the "essential ingredient" in my plan for the screw-less front panel. Thanks Rigo for the inspiration! The plan is to mount countersunk screws to the four corners on the back of the front panel, using J-B Weld. This gets the panel secured to the case, and also supports the PCB. But I thought that wouldn't be enough support for the PCB, i.e. that the PCB would bend under the pressure of pressing the buttons, so I also plan to use threaded spacers glued to the front panel as extra support.The real trick is how to glue things to the front panel so that they are perfectly aligned, and also handle the PCB being slightly curved - it curves away from the front panel at the left and right edges >:(So here's the trick:Mount all the threaded spacers to the PCB.Put the countersunk screws in the PCB, with a nut between the screw head and PCB.Mount a few tactile switches to use as alignment guides.Hold the panel and PCB together with four clamps at the corners, using the tactile switches to get perfect alignment.Put some J-B Weld on the head of the screw, pull screw from PCB end and rotate. The friction between the nut and PCB will cause the screw to get closer to the front panel, and then it eventually holds it in place.Tweak the screw position until it is in the centre of the PCB hole.When it's all done, you get a nicely mounted screw.So now I can say that J-B Weld works well between anodized aluminium and a zinc plated screw. I've given it a good pull and it's stuck well.Gluing all the threaded spacers to the panel is a bit overkill, but it will result in a more solid feeling when you press the tactile switches, and it keeps the PCB and panel exactly 10mm apart all over. It should be pretty easy to do, just put blobs of J-B Weld on the panel and mount the PCB (with spacers attached) to the panel, tweak for alignment and hold it together with clamps."10mm" is the magic dimension in this design, this distance between panel and PCB works perfectly with a 1.5mm thick panel, 13mm ALPS tactile switches (1.5mm protruding), the encoders, the "Waldorf" knobs, and with the OSD 4x20 PLED display. The display, unfortunately, was not exactly 10mm high like the spec, one little SMD part was about 1mm too tall, so a little routing of the PCB underneath was required. There are no PCB tracks at all in the space underneath the display, should anyone (including myself!) need to route holes to make the display fit.Those knobs are perfect... I expected they would work well, as the knobs were made to fit these encoders on the Waldorf synths, but when the knob is pushed onto the shaft the whole way, there's 0.5mm clearance between knob and panel. ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryd_one Posted March 3, 2007 Report Share Posted March 3, 2007 :D That last pic is poetry!! It's like the CAD rendered perfectly into real life ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilba Posted March 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 I used Zoner Draw to design the front panel. It's a great tool for this job, as it's not as complex as AutoCAD, but more CAD-like than Illustrator, so it's perfect for doing the artwork as well as placing holes on a grid. After a lot of jiggling around in Zoner Draw to make everything fit, I then used it as the guide to setting dimensions in Front Panel Designer and Protel DXP.Zoner Draw is also useful for sketching the cross section view, which is an absolute must. Even before you start buying components you should make sure they will all fit together! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK. Posted March 4, 2007 Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 very inspirational! :)How are your plans for mounting the LEDs? Getting them aligned with the holes in the frontpanel is very difficult when they are mounted on the PCB. Thats the reason, why I either use smaller boards, or glue the LEDs into the panelBest Regards, Thorsten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilba Posted March 4, 2007 Author Report Share Posted March 4, 2007 To mount the LEDs, I'm going to use a trick I learned with my previous control surface. You put the LEDs in the PCB, then screw PCB and panel together. Then with panel face-down, the LEDs are placed into the holes on the panel. This holds them in perfect alignment while soldering, and at exactly the height I want (in this case, the top of the LED will be at the same level as the tops of the switches, 1.5mm above panel). You have to do this after mounting switches, but before mounting rotary encoders, so you can use a flat surface under the face-down panel to hold the LED at the desired height while soldering. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Razmo Posted March 10, 2007 Report Share Posted March 10, 2007 Hi Everyone... and a special HI to Wilba, and not to Mention Thorsten :)Well... My eyes are still fatigued by looking at that "All in One" project you are doing Wilba, and I definately hope, that these will be purchaseable through Smash TV's website INCLUDING components at some point in the future! :P ... But having always been VERY minimalistic (contrary to many people in here ;D), I have a question:I've always dreamed about a space preserving studio of mine, and are well on my way to having obtained this, and thus, I'm fond of 1U rack things ;D ... so naturally, I'm wondering, if it would be possible to use your All in One PCB in a 1U rack housing!? ... As I'm informed by Thorsten, the new V2 requires the use of pots and buttons since nothing is done yet to have a PC interface!? ... what EXACTLY will be needed (minimum) to actually create this thing in a 1U rack module? ... I got enough 8580's to fill two modules if I wanted to, so SID's won't be the prob. 8)I've been asked to betatest the V2 engine by Thorsten, but unfortunately I'll have to wait untill this 1U rack thing is reality for me, as I'll not fire off money on anything but this in the future, so I hope it'll see the light of day this project of your Wilba in the near future, so that I may utter my ultrahigh synth engine requirements to Thorten and make his coding life a not so easy one to live ;D ...Best regards, and a thumbs up to your project! 8)Razmo, Denmark. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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