Jidis

That would probably be me (I had somehow forgotten you asked :-[). BTW- That junk finally went out a few days ago. I etched one of those PIC burner boards and threw it in there, so hopefully if you ever get screwed up bad enough or knock all the smoke out of your PIC, you'll have an escape route. That suggestion on throwing a "one way" dump at the box immediately after it comes on is just something I've had work here in the past. With the current MIOS/loader, I haven't messed anything up bad enough not to be able to easily get a dump through in a while anyway, but I haven't been getting in much app tweaking time lately. :'( Take care, and try to stay out of the heat, George

(Hope this doesn't come through 1000 times- Opera got funky on me.) Don't forget sandpaper and belt sanders. 8) As horrible as that crap is to cut, those seem to burn right through it. I'm in a habit of rough cutting mine, or doing the "score & snap" with a metal ruler, giving them about an eighth inch or more around the outside perimeter. I usually take a 3x18" handheld belt sander to them afterward, by holding the sander sideways in one hand, and bringing the board edge against it with the other, blowing off the dust and checking it, until I've lined up with the perimeter lines. Not the safest thing in the world. Probably better to lock the board into a vise and bring the sander in by hand. I also slide them on edge across a sheet of sandpaper on a hard flat surface, if I'm not around any tools. Only takes a few minutes and you can make nice messy cuts to start off with. Bear in mind, it's not very friendly to the paper/belts. I think the copper coated areas are worse though. Use old ones that are already worn. BTW-- c0nsumer, you mentioned lacquer in the board composition. I've also been hitting some of mine with a mist of spray lacquer after I etch, to keep the copper nice looking. I found that tip in either one of the "sci.electronics" newsgroups or the Yahoo PCB group. You or anyone else see any problem with that? There wasn't much more than one post on it, and all he said was that it could stink a little worse when soldering to it, but it didn't ruin the joints. That's about the same thing I've found here, but that's just from observation. It's definitely easy to do. -Thanks, George

Sounds like it might be good to go right out of the box (if it's got its own internal MIDI interface). Mine has the ADB 4 pin, then there are com port versions (which may actually still work on PC). The CS10s are the same way. I've got one which is actual MIDI connections, but there are serials and ADB on them too. They've got some cool obscure stuff. The sync boxes and CS10s are all over the place, but once in a while you'll see some Cooper thing from ten or fifteen years ago that you've never seen and may never see again. There was some crazy looking rackmount drum module by them in the "MSB patchbay" looking gray and white style on there a few months back. Looked like 4 or 5 spaces, maybe in vertical, modular units. :o Good luck with the Control Station, George PS- MMC (MIDI Machine Control) is a set of MIDI commands for transport control and track arming stuff. Nuendo supports that as well. (sorry if you knew that already)

David, I think I did that same research when I ordered the box I'm using, and ended up going with .033". Either way they've done well. I just keep a few various sized regular micro bits on hand for anything which needs a bit larger hole. Usually only a few of those per board. Take Care, George

Joe, I had pieced together some pictures a while back of different designs, mostly transports and basic mute solo boxes. The designs may be more than what you're talking about, but they might at least give you a "visual". http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php?topic=5956.0 Another option is to replace the guts of an existing controller. I've been hanging on to a JLCooper "Control Station" transport control for a while, which supports the old Mac ADB keyboard protocol (pretty much worthless now). The plan is to replace the mainboard with a small core/D.In circuit, or whatever is needed. It's a great looking case, complete with relevant silkscreening, and it was dirt cheap (9 bucks or something). There's also alternatives from semi-obsolete gear, like the Tascam RC-71 (used by the 122 decks and some multitracks), and maybe the Alesis LRC (should be billions of them, plus people with BRC's and racks of ADAT's got a free useless one with every ADAT purchase). Cheap cheap alternative is a small drum machine or something with it's MIDI note messages mapped to Nuendo's generic remote device. I've used an SR-16 for that a bunch of times. Hard, positive tactile feel buttons are probably better as transport controls, so maybe an old "non-velocity sensitive" machine with hard plastic buttons would feel better (like a Roland 505 era box). I'll give you a heads-up on a certain flaw in Steinberg's GR though: It won't transmit MIDI messages for changes you make on the external controller. For instance, if you made a box with solo lights and buttons, your lights would only light up if you hit the onscreen buttons in Nuendo. If you solo'd from the controller, nothing would go out from the DAW. I'm guessing the record arm lights are the same way, but I'm not sure about the main transport record light. Take care and good luck! George

Hi, <I guess this is a "part" ;D> I etched one of those MBHP_BURNER_V1_PLUS boards and couldn't seem to find a connection while skimming over it: There's a large, almost square ground pour near the center of the board, where the Vpp/Vdd lights are. Then, there's the main pour surrounding most of the board. I couldn't see any connection between the two. I see a connecting trace which rides up between the legs of the 40-pin socket (pins 8/9 and 32/33) and connects that square part to a pour at the ass end of the add-on 18-pin socket, but nothing to the main pour. Am I missing something? Much Thanks, George

Actually, I think the transfer part doesn't matter, but I do recall mention (there maybe) of the green TRF being a requirement. That was why I hadn't tried the sponge yet. I haven't placed a Digikey order in a long while, which is where I'll be getting the TRF. It sounded like maybe the unprotected toner can't withstand the wiping, but it might be worth a shot. That Staples paper I've been using is pretty much all or nothing. If it gets on there, you'd have to scratch into it or eat it off with a solvent. Gootee even mentions wiping it with a paper towel while he etches, so who knows. BTW- I grabbed that mix he talks about tonight (1 part Muriatic acid to 2 parts Hydrogen Peroxide). I ate the copper traces off an old chunk of pre-etched board in a five or ten minutes, but may get to try something "real" with it tomorrow. Good lord that stuff's got some fumes though! I did everything outside to be safe, and when I first opened the acid, this long "cloud" of crap came out of it that made me choke. I had to run around the corner of the house to get away from it, and it seemed to chase me halfway there. It wasn't bad after that, but I kept a decent distance from it (wearing long rubber gloves and goggles too). On the plus side, it's cheap as dirt and it didn't seem to require heat. A giant jug of it was only 5 bucks and two big bottles of the h.peroxide were another 3. It's also supposed to neutralize with baking soda and it's relatively clear. If it makes a clean etch on real boards, I'm sold. Take Care, George PS- (Mr modnaR) I *think* there have been some mods mentioned in that Yahoo group for "thickness hacks" on the consumer grade laminators. I know they've done stuff like that to printers. I'm not sure the industry would see it as worthwhile though. We're probably the only weirdos trying to feed this sort of crap into them. 8)

docbrown, Hi. I foolishly sort of assumed everybody had been to that Tom Gootee site (Otterfan's reply above has it linked). It's just a "house brand" of glossy inkjet photo paper carried by the Staples chain stores here in the US (unless they're everywhere). The Gootee page has the bar code and everything else about it listed. I think lots of stuff will probably work, but they each may have some unique qualities. The JetPrint stuff I was using (Epson brand I believe) would let the toner slide off by itself, and there was a sort of gooey film between it and the paper (after soaking). The Staples stuff sort of gets glued to the board, and then you peel and rub away at the wet paper until most of it's gone. It bonds really well, but there is that light residue I mentioned. For boards, it doesn't really matter if it isn't blocking holes or anything, but it doesn't look solid black. I think if you played with a few, you'd probably hit a decent one, but it seems there was a poll somewhere with printers and papers people had used. Could be on the Gootee site, but it could've been from the Yahoo PCB group. It's almost 6am now here, so they're all sort of smushed together in my head. ;) There's also mention of people just using glossy pages from magazines as the carrier, and a tip on the Yahoo group for some Reynolds brand "Release" wrap (no-stick aluminum foil). I tried that, but it was weird. It was like when you write on a CD with the wrong type of marker and you can just take your finger and smear it off, plus the paper was really fragile. I had mine taped to a paper carrier sheet. I didn't give it enough time because the regular glossy paper was already doing OK, but it's still here. For the printers, I've run the LaserJet 6L and an old Sharp copy/fax printer (FO-2850 maybe), and before that I was getting decent results with copies from a Xerox machine at my father's office. I think the grade of toner is the ticket. I seem to recall people who had bought replacement toner carts for things which didn't transfer worth a crap. There was also someone actually recommending the no-name carts as replacements for mine. Something about lower melting points with the cheaper quality toner (easier transfers). Davo- I guess that printer at the university could have just about anything in it if it's been around a while. I think I've heard of people using the 4000 series, so that could be why it wasn't working on that one. In a way I'm almost glad to hear that a laminator isn't a guaranteed perfect transfer every time for everyone. Makes me feel a bit better about not having found one yet, but I'll keep an eye out here anyway. George

Hey again, No, I like that board alright. It's more that the etching process sucked. I think overall, I was hanging out with the chemicals for over a half hour. Neither mix was in usable condition. The Sodium P. was old and was a poor mix to begin with, and the FC was just too old and weak/watery. For a while, I felt like I may as well have dunked the board in some chicken soup. I built a nice etch tank a while back and haven't been using it because it requires too much etchant. With the heat and bubblers, that thing did a clean etch in a few minutes, even with old nasty watered down FC. I want one of those coffee pot etchers, but if I ever get off my a$$ and get a roll of that green TRF, I may start doing the "wipe etch" thing, which seems perfect for small one-offs. I also want to try that etchant mix that Gootee praises on his site (hardware/drugstore stuff). Did you ever dig up a different iron or check some other printers/toner? I still think there's something simple behind it. On a bad, frustrating day, I may have to try a transfer 3 or 4 times to get a good one, but that may not still be the case if I can remember my procedure. >:( Aluminum is another story, but I get it eventually. Take Care, George

Davo, Damn. :( I'm guessing you never got much out of the toner transfers, even with the paper. I just grabbed a new pack this weekend and have been having better luck than before (which was pretty good anyway). The package for the new Staples paper was different, but the number was the same. I think it was the ironing that helped though. I bumped my iron down a couple notches to a "polyester" setting, and gave it a little more overall time and pressure. I was having trouble blurring the prints with the heat. I still want a laminator, but probably not unless I find a good one. @DrBunsen- Watch the thickness on what you're feeding someone else's machine. The specs I saw didn't look as if most of the consumer grade ones would handle even the "average" PCB thicknesses. Don't want you to end up homeless. ;) Here's some iron-on stuff from this weekend using the Staples paper- The little nicks and couple pinholes in there were actually part of the print. I'm using an HP LaserJet6L, which prints pretty dark. I normally go around and re-mask thick areas on the outside border lines and stuff with a marker if it's important, but this board was more for practice. Here's a shot of the etching (which sucked BTW- I was using some exhausted ferric chloride with poor heating and agitation and even had it in sodium persulfate for a bit). And the labeling: That did really well with the current setup. I normally use JetPrint paper for labels, but accidentally used a piece of the Staples stuff. The Staples sticks really well, but can leave a whitish "paper residue". You can see a bit of it on that top right LED label. I have a feeling there's a bunch of stuff which would cure that, as it looks really good while it's wet. I sprayed this one with some clear polyurethane and it got rid of most of it. I'm thinking a bit of dark stain might also soak into it and take out the whiteness. I'll try that next. The toner bonds to this board I'm using a lot differently than it does on the copper side,etc. It almost fuses itself into the surface. You can "sort of" wipe it away with acetone, but it leaves a ghost image. You have to sand it to get it all off (that's a good thing I guess). Here's the iron I'm using: It's got a sanded-smooth plate of aluminum attached to the bottom with some JB Weld adhesive. Hope the next stuff comes out this well, but I'll probably forget everything I did. ;D George

Yes, I've been doing toner transfers to aluminum and a bunch of other weird crap for a while. Some turns out OK. I'll try to grab a pic or two later. The problem with it (I believe) is that the heating of the substrate can work drastically different than what we're used to with circuit board material. I've been stuck running a modified clothes iron for my TT stuff, and I think with a proper laminator or something, the metal transfers may be more consistent, but you'd also need something to accommodate such thick heavy material. If you don't get too frustrated, the regular iron method can work with a bunch of trial and error tests. My main problems with it seem to have been from the metal getting too hot and blurring the toner in spots. Another thing which has helped a lot has been spraying a light mist of clear acrylic on the aluminum beforehand. It seems to help fuse the toner to it and keeps the paper down tight, as the metal starts to cool down. It's the same stuff I put over the transfer once I'm happy enough with it. BTW- I've done PCB labels with the TT too. Probably works even better than metal panels, but doing labels on a double-sided board is a PITA >:( (too much texture I think). Take Care, George BTW- Despite the luck I've had with TT, I'm very interested in that lazertran stuff. I've got a larger panel to do soon (hopefully) and without a better laminating system, I'm not sure I could get a 100% even transfer, unless I do it in sections somehow.

To add to that, be aware that there are a couple different standards for the inside/outside diameters on those coaxial power connectors. Some have the same size plug, but the center pin is smaller or larger. On the cheap, you can usually scavenge one off of something you broke, if looks aren't important: You'll see 3 connections on some. The third usually goes to a tab which closes against the center pin when there's nothing plugged in. You'd be using the other two. Take Care

Weird (Goode, VA). That's right by where I am and I hadn't heard of it. Hillbilly hick towns always get the cool knobs. :P

Yes, here in Opera/XP too, but I think it's this: http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php?topic=4866 Now, if the ASCII picture was that easy to convert, I'd be in business. ;D

Yeah, I go to the damn beach for two days, come back and a man has dated a black woman. I mean didn't that make the friggin' news or anything?? ;D

I think Tel3's talking about this: It's usually called a "knockout punch" and it usually costs more than it should. >:( I guess you're paying for the grade of metal and the precision that it was made with, but I probably wouldn't buy it again if anything happened to it, unless it was a lot less money. The square ones and weird shapes are the big bucks. I think you can get a whole set of round punches for the cost of one of the squares, but who needs that when you can do small round stuff in a drill press. They make D-Subs and specialty crap too I believe. I bought that one used a few years back. It's an actual Greenlee brand, but the Mouser generics and stuff were less than half when I got it. I've got a feeling either would probably work for myself or most other DIY'ers. It basically just "crushes" a square hole through the panel. You drill out the center first and insert that arbor thing through the hole, with the square piece (in the center of that picture) on one side of the metal. Then you hold one end of the arbor with a wrench and crank the other with another one (it's threaded), to force the square thing through the panel (pretty primitive huh?). It's not 100% perfect. If it isn't nice and sharp, and well lubricated, it can flex the edges of the metal, like was mentioned about the nibbler. I've also seen it "twist" slightly and miss my target lines, when I wasn't careful, but I barely know what the hell I'm doing with it. The one in the picture is a model 731 12.7mm (1/2"). A small one can obviously also do large holes for LCD's or big buttons, by knocking out the corners and sawing the rest of the straight stuff. The big hole in the picture was a test for a Digitast button here (20mm I think). The smaller hole was made directly by the Greenlee. If you can't get one cheap, I personally would only recommend it if you've got a load of holes to do in one specific size, and there's no way you can combine the buttons into long rectangular holes or anything. As for the nibbler- I can't find my package in this mess of junk here, but looking at the tool itself, it looks like there's only a couple millimeters of space under the "tooth" part. I chopped up a metal box from a 5.25" CDROM with it recently and it did well, but that's probably it's limit (roughly 1/16th inch metal). Not really for panel material, but a great thing to have laying around (very cheap too). <edit -just found the nibbler docs> This one says it cuts up to 18 gauge (.046") steel, 1.5mm(1/16") copper, aluminum, plastic and other unhardened metals. (When you squeeze the handle, that "tooth" thing gets pulled up into the tool and takes a rectangular shaped bite out of whatever's wedged under it.) Don't overestimate the aluminum's resistance to being cut or worked. I fell in love with that crap a few months ago after someone gave me a small sheet, and I ordered a larger one. It's about eighth inch thickness. I built a MB recently which had a few small square buttons (roughly 7-8mm), and I just drilled and sawed them out rough, and then carefully slid a small file down into the hole to get it squared up. It's easy enough that I actually managed to enlarge one a bit too much. Also, keep Kerosene on hand. The aluminum makes a nasty gunk on files and other tools and also requires lubricant. Take Care George

Yes, thanks for the link! :) That "Stefan Trethan" guy is someone I used to see in the Yahoo Homebrew PCB group. I wouldn't be surprised if there already was discussion there of what machines others had tried (albeit, maybe without the nice tutorial). I thought I had that printer in a pile of junk upstairs, but it turns out it's a C80 (not C84). Don't know if the guts are the same, or if it would matter, but like stryd_one, I got sort of disappointed when I hit that "curing" section. Everything was so easy up until then. :( Right now, I'm doing toner transfers from an HP LaserJet6L, which work pretty well. The lamination stage is my only gripe, but my real trouble there is with transfers on metals and stuff for panels. I wish I could do direct prints to that. George

People in the Yahoo homebrew PCB group swore that nothing under 20k rpm was any good. ??? I use a small Delta press here for lots of stuff, and have occasionally bumped the speed way way down, just for the nice, pleasant sound it makes for lengthy drilling sessions. Seemed to do fine, even with my carbide .033" PCB bits, but I hear they're supposed to be run extra fast (YMMV). George -And thanks tel3 for that link! That's some weird looking stuff they make. ;) - also, FWIW, I think the people in that PCB group used to knock the newer model Dremel presses (quality or accuracy issues), but some of those guys insisted that anything that couldn't work within a .00000000001" tolerance was a piece of crap. An older model may not be a bad deal, even if it may be lacking some bells and whistles, but there could be different ones. I haven't been keeping up with that group lately.

You're not looking at the notches that are supposed to be there are you? ;D @Docbrown- I think that Digikey link may have been unique to your computer. It says the "session has expired" or something here. I've never seen those caps before. I've got some LED's with caps that look just like them, but they're locked into a white PVC plastic housing, complete with leads. Speaking of leads, have any of the DIY backlit button'ers run into any issues with having LED legs, which need to be frequently "flexed" during button movement? Didn't know how much of an issue that would be, just couldn't help but wonder. George ???

ToS, Thanks! Yeah that was an initially planned solution with certain ideas, but the more I think about controls I would want, the more I like the idea of "repeatability", and having the controller update itself from the DAW app for that sort of stuff, rather than having a mechanical part be "out of sync" with the parameter it's linked to. I was messing with some value scaling and conversion recently, and did OK (surprisingly), so I may not have as much trouble with it now, but I've been tied up with some other things. Take Care, George PS- Damn, now you got me wishing that I had done a stepped button on the EQ control I made recently. I actually didn't even go with a multi-way rotary switch on that, and just used the regular pots. It has a couple stepped controls which only need 4-6 steps. I could've put 4-6 LED's with the frequency label beside each one, and a button at the bottom of the list. >:( - maybe next time with any luck

Indeed. They seem like if you "fuzz'd" up the top a little with some sandpaper, you could probably epoxy or silicone just about anything to them. After I posted that, I tried to tilt one of mine sideways to see if it made any difference and it clicks just the same from any angle, so I guess even with a larger rubber cap or whatever, it wouldn't affect the functioning. @Moxi, A couple things: For stuff like the smaller cube-shaped button, have you got any plans on how you would go about suspending it in your panel holes, or are you going to make them all "free floating" in the holes and just affix them each to the buttons underneath? Also, any ideas on the coloring of the resin you mentioned earlier? I'll have to look at the ingredients later, but I'm guessing there's stuff that won't mix with it (or will keep it from curing). Thanks! George PS- I really like that dull gray color :). I need to track down that RTV stuff. I used a mold making latex, which starts off white, then turns a yellowish clear when it dries. I also found out I wasn't using it right. You're supposed to apply it in really thin coats and dry it in-between with a hair dryer. I tried to make a few of those buttons on a rubber membrane and they came out sort of messy with air bubbles, and they didn't dry well. If I get any good results with that, I'll post. FWIW, the procedure was a cinch. I took a scrap of particle board, and drilled a few 1/4" deep, flat bottomed holes in a row, with a Forstner bit (a fancy spade bit), I then hotmelt glued strips of hardboard (masonite) around it to make a small reservoir, and filled it up with that latex (I think I greased it up with something first). The result was a row of 1/4" tall circular rubber buttons, stuck to a thin sheet of rubber (the thickness of the masonite). Might work with a few tweaks. It's close to what you described with the plexi panel, but a bit more home brewed and sloppy. Now, how the hell do we get labels on that stuff??;D Oh, also- Coating fiberglass (or just resin) with that rubber worked really well too. If you coated the tops, or suspended resin buttons in the latex somehow, you should have a clean "glue friendly" surface to stick to a tact switch or something. I dunked a piezo in fiberglass a while back and rubberized it successfully. With enough layers, you'd be back to a rubber feel. Pretty horrible looking picture. It actually feels more like a piece of chocolate candy, and would look more appetizing if the latex had some coloring added (that's the plain clear, and the FG is that green "Bondo" body filler). That dark bottom half is actually mouse pad material that I stuck to it while the rubber was wet.

Nice buttons! Moxi, You may want to look into something like these: ebay- http://tinyurl.com/qky42 They're supposed to be an ITT PTS125SM85 http://rocky.digikey.com/WebLib/C&K%20Components/Web%20Data/PTS%20Series.pdf They're sort of like a giant version of the little cheap tacts in the consumer electronics and the heads are big enough that I can use them comfortably with no caps on them. The square part's 12mm. The button diameter measures around 6.8mm. It's hard to tell from pictures, but they're not rubber. They're more of a slick hard plastic, so they shouldn't amount to too much flex if combined with a large rubber cap. You could also maybe stick a thin plate or disc of plastic or something rigid between them and the cap if you wanted to make sure they didn't miss any "indirect" hits in the corners and edges of the caps, but I don't think it would be a problem. Best part, they're cheap as dirt. If you can get a few where you are, it might be worth checking them just to see what they do. They should at least work for the regular button part (guessing you're not going momentary switch on the pads?). Take Care, George

Hi, The host application may be able to help you on the shared controls thing, depending on what you're using. I run Nuendo here, and I know the generic remote in the Steinberg apps allows you to assign an incoming event to an item on the "selected" channel, so if you had all your faders mapped directly to the individual channels, you could still have a bank of knobs etc., linked to an EQ or the send controls on whatever channel was selected. For plugs of course, the plug needs to be in the exact same insert point within each channel, so you'd probably need to lay out a few templates and spend some time writing and saving maps. The plug parameters are just seen as a sequential list of items which can be linked to, so if something else ends up in that slot location, your controls will go to it instead. I'm not sure if there's any way to have the selection jump to incoming fader activity etc., but you could probably assign additional events (and switches) to change the channel selection from the master section. The Steinberg G.R. seems to do a good job of dumping out the selected channel's current settings as the selection changes, so if you were running LED's (or LED rings) in your shared master controls section, they'd change accordingly, as the channels were changed. :) My guess is that most of the big audio sequencer apps will have similar features, but I'm pretty dedicated to Nuendo these days, so I haven't looked around much. I do have one gripe with the way Nuendo deals with the outgoing messages. It can send the corresponding signals out with their status changes in the program, but only if the changes are made from within the app. I built a MB clone for that new UAD Neve 1073, only to discover that the lights don't work when I hit the buttons on it. Same holds true for mutes/solo's, or anything else you'd be expecting status lights for. Per suggestions here, I'll probably be looking into ways of getting the outgoing messages bounced back into the controller from it's own output (like a MIDI thru), but I'm not looking forward to it. I was recently told that Ableton Live and FruityLoops Studio have better remote implementation, but it may have been regarding the way that you actually assign remote signals to the mapped items (another shortcoming of the Steinberg apps). Good luck and hope that helps, George

Did actually get to check it last night, but got in really late (got a duplicate box at the studio ;D ). The location of the LED_TEMP variable definitely had something to do with it. I was using a couple spots just past the last CSMD_POTBASE (0x299) in app_defines for a couple user variables. We are clear at that point aren't we (I thought it was free all the way up into the high end of 300)? I stole the slot for one of the drum equates (0x6f), since the drum stuff is disabled, and I didn't have any trouble with random junk landing in that variable. I'll find a better home for it later. On a positive note, this mess I made now "appears" to work, I was able to comment out the LCD part, I added a second light to the toggle, and added the actual DOUT message change that the shift toggle is supposed to make. So now: - There are two DOUT pins (LED's) controlled by a toggle on one DIN input, tied to a flip-flopping variable. - Only one is lit at a time, depending on the variable state. - The change is only triggered by the forward half of the switch event (not the button release), and this particular button is ignored by the rest of the button handler. - The toggle state currently bounces the button map 'up' by 24 items in the button list, so in the default state it does nothing and the app inits with a green light (for instance), and button #1 puts out the message you have assigned to button #1. Tap the toggle, green light goes out, red light comes on, and button #1 is now putting out the message for button #25,etc. (three shift registers forward). I'm guessing a counter variable could be used to toggle between more than two, with inc/dec instructions on the counter for each event from the toggle button, rather than a comf. That could get a few different batches of outputs from the same buttons (with lights). Of course a "physical" toggle, slide, or rocker could also be used with no lights, and you wouldn't even need the variable (just a PinGet). The shift part came from a post by Neomorph in 2004 ( http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php?topic=3295.0 ). For anyone who might read this: How easy/difficult would it be to modify the actual outgoing (MIDI) button "messages" before the output, under "shifted" conditions? For instance, rather than being restricted to the list of button message assignments, could you pull in the MIDI message, add a number to the channel, note, or velocity value, and then let it continue to the output? Would probably be quite useful. Thanks! George -

(replying to my own post) ...ouch I think that temp is in an "off limits" section of memory. :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ :-[ I just saw MIDI-Ox mess with it during a syx dump. I'm surprised any config worked. I'll try to fix it later. (good point to leave and go to the studio 8)). I'll post when I check it again, Take Care, George