jimhenry

You arrive at the best of times and the worst of times. TK has just released a new version of MIDIO128 but it requires a new Core module. I am pretty sure this new version is what you want to use as it has several features that are a nice step up from the previous version. The problem is that you will be a pioneer and you could have questions that no one will be able to answer from experience. Tough call.

TK, has anyone told you that you are amazing recently? If not, YOU ARE AMAZING TK! :sorcerer:

Does the MBHP_CORE_LPC17 module support a small number of analog inputs using just the core module? It probably isn't the easiest enhancement to implement but it would be very helpful to support a small number of analog inputs. A prime use of MIDIO128 with a large number of inputs is MIDIfying an organ console. It is common to patch the legacy MIDIO128 to provide a few analog inputs for the swell (volume) pedals.

Core8. You should give each Core that is chained together a unique ID so they can be programmed while in the chain. Note that the kits are just a PCB and parts--no instructions. There is a lot of useful information, including a guide for assembling the Core, in the Wiki: http://www.midibox.org/dokuwiki/

MIDIO128 is software. The Core and the DIN are hardware. You can buy ready made boards but you have to assemble the components to them. I am in the U.S. and I buy my boards from SmashTV. He does ship worldwide.

The first step is strip out the old electronics and reduce the console to a box of switches. You may be able to make use of some of the wiring from those switches so think about leaving the wire that runs from the switch to the first connection. The MIDIO128 project is well suited to MIDIfying an organ console. 1 core and 4 DIN can convert up to 128 switches to MIDI Out. You will need more than 1 core because you will have more than 128 switches. It is better to wire in an organized way, e.g. 61 note manual to 2 DIN boards with 3 unused inputs, than use every available input. You will use MIDI Out from 1 core to MIDI In of the next and merge to get the required number of inputs. Install a linear pot on your swell pedal, e.g 10K linear, and there is a small patch to MIDIO128 that will allow you to get MIDI from the swell pedal. There is a lot of information about using MidiBox to MIDIfy old organ consoles in the Miditzer Forum, free but registration required.

The switch matrix project has indeed gotten scattered. I've started and stopped so many times without ever achieving a solid success that I've forgotten what was working and what brought me to a stop. My last effort was trying to help someone MIDIfy four organ manuals. My victim, er, collaborator eventually got frustrated and went with a commercial solution. I think the MidiBox side was close to working but I think he was done in by disorganized wiring and testing. For what it's worth, we conducted the entire effort by posts in the Miditzer Forum. You'll have to register for the Forum (free) and then you can wade through our entire exchange: Miditzer Forum: Midibox switch matrix project As I recall, QBas' 32x32 code is attached to at least one post in that topic. Sorry I can't be more specific but my memory of this is so jumbled you'll be better off reading through the correspondence on that project.

Hi Peter, Let me see if I can help you find the correct terminology for the solution you seek. As I understand it, the FCB-1010 has an expression pedal that puts out MIDI messages when it is moved. The messages are probably MIDI Continuous Control (CC) messages, probably Volume (CC 7) or Expression (CC 11). You want a device that will receive those MIDI messages and use them to control the volume of an analog signal. The volume control might be by controlling an attenuator (variable resistance) or an amplifier (VCA or voltage controlled amplifier although you really are using MIDI rather than voltage for the control). I am 99% sure that one or another of the MidiBox projects can do what you want. There is probably another area of this Forum that is more appropriate for your question. In Midification we are trying to go the other way, taking inputs and creating MIDI Messages. So we are primarily focused on the MIDIO128 project. That is not what you want. One last thing, I assume that what you want to do with the analog signal can be easily accomplished with an audio taper potentiometer and that what you want to is in effect turn the knob on the potentiometer using the MIDI from your pedal. Do you know if that is the case? Knowing that will help to define the analog requirements. I will also point out that almost all electronic organs use an expression pedal that mechanically turns the shaft on an analog taper pot to control the organ volume. Have you considered finding such a pedal from an organ that is being discarded and using that, bypassing MIDI entirely? Slightly more elegant would be to add a mechanical linkage to your FCB-1010 pedal connected to an audio taper pot to control the analog signal directly.

The way you probably want to tackle this is to split your organ in half and put jOrgan in the middle. Console -> jOrgan -> Pipes MidiBox will provide the -> by converting between the electrical signals used by the organ and the MIDI messages used by jOrgan. The console to jOrgan should be straightforward as many people have Midified various organ consoles to control jOrgan and other virtual organs. The output side is where you'll be part of a small group because only a few people deal with real pipes. I think jOrgan can produce MIDI output to signal stop changes which you can use to make the stops track what jOrgan is doing. You would send a stop change message when you change an individual stop so that jOrgan can follow those changes. You would send a piston message when you want to select a combination and jOrgan would use its virtual combination action to set the virtual stops and send MIDI messages to move the console stops to match. You should run this by the folks on the jOrgan Forum to see if there are any problems with doing this. I would start by creating the organ you want to have entirely in jOrgan without worrying about how you are going to connect the real organ. A virtual organ exists entirely in the computer without the need for any real hardware. Any real hardware that is connected to the virtual organ is either causing its virtual counterpart to follow the hardware, e.g. the console, or is following its virtual counterpart, e.g. the pipes. You need to have a jOrgan configuration that exactly matches your real hardware so you can tie the two together.

Yes, this could be done with MidiBox. No, it is not an easy project. I think a few people have done something like this but I don't know if they watch this Forum on a regular basis. You would probably be largely on your own and that is not a good place to be if you aren't pretty comfortable with electronics, software, and organ wiring. I assume your organ does have an electro-pneumatic or electric action. It would be easier to use a PC in the middle with the console sending MIDI In to jOrgan and using MIDI Out from jOrgan to drive the pipes. Replacing the logic provided by jOrgan would be a MAJOR software effort in MidiBox. There is a reason why organ relays cost what they do. If you want to play your organ rather than spend a lot of time mucking with electronics, you might want to think again about trying to find the money to go with a commercial solution. There are some that are pretty reasonably priced considering the amount of effort it will take you to do it yourself. Look at Opus Two and the Artisan microMidi (?) if you haven't already.

A switch matrix can be perplexing to troubleshoot. I'd suggest doing something easier, like a project based on MIDIO128 before tackling a switch matrix. The guy who bailed on the 32x32 matrix had successfully completed a couple of other MidiBox projects before that.

QBas was reluctant to post his extensions of Thorsten's scan matrix example because they were always of the status "work in progress" and the comments were minimal. Thus he felt they were not work that should be used unless you were reasonably comfortable adapting assembly code without much guidance. That said, he was always happy to share the code with those who understood and accepted the limitations. If your goal is to MIDIfy your keyboard with velocity sensitivity, you may be able to use QBas' code without much, if any, modification as that sounds very much like what QBas is doing. I don't think he follows this Forum anymore but I was able to reach him by email earlier this year and he provided me with his then current code. I would suggest trying that first. If you don't have any luck, post again and I'll sort out what I have and provide you a copy. I was working with someone on a 32x32 matrix, no velocity. (Yes, they really did have it wired for the full 32x32 matrix to MIDIfy an organ console.) They eventually got frustrated with trying to get it working so I can't say that the 32x32 code is proven although I thought the issues were in the keyboard wiring not the code. I think QBas also provided a then current copy of his 16x16 velocity sensing code but I'm not sure and I haven't done anything with it.

Unless the organ keyboard is an especially good one mechanically, it might make more sense to replace it either with a MIDI keyboard or another old organ keyboard in better shape. Old organ consoles often go begging for a home. This was offered in June. Don't know if it is still available. ==================== I have an 1960s vintage Artisan Organ, 3 keyboards and full pedals that I would like to donate to someone. I built the organ, starting in 1960 and need to get rid of it. I am about at my wits end because I have contacted churches, etc if anyone would be interested in taking the organ as a donation, and have had absolutely no interest in responses. I have thought about putting it on EBay, but there does not seem to be interest in organs via that mode either. I realize the organ is old technology and that any repairs would be extremely difficult due to scarcity of parts, but thought I would might contact the ATOS in case someone out there might be interested. The shell is in excellent shape, and my thought was/is that it could be gutted of the existing electronics and other equipment night be installed if someone would be so inclined. As I previously said this would only be a donation, as I just would like for the organ, at least the shell to have another life. At this point my only other option is to take the organ to a landfill and I just despise the thought of that. I have talked with Mr Robert Tall (Robert Tall and Associates Digital Organs, San Dimas, Ca) and he suggested I contact you. I have enclosed several photos that I thought might be of interest. Thank you for your attention in the matter, and please let me know. Very sincerely, Gil Effertz Frazier Park, Ca 661-245-3504 gdeffertz@att.net

Inevitably you are going to need to do something where you need to remove a board. PCBs aren't made to withstand repeated soldering and unsoldering. With all due respect, if you have these kinds of questions, you should start with a less ambitious project. I am pretty sure that the #1 reason for failure of MidiBox projects is overambition. You are going to learn a lot in getting your first MidiBox up and running. Your second MidiBox will be a lot better. I think you will be a lot happier if the big project is your second project.

I would suggest that you spend some of your time while you wait to get possession of the organ learning about organs. If you go to www.VirtualOrgan.com you can download the Miditzer for free. That will give you an organ that you can play with just your mouse and screen for the time being. Later you might decide to control it with the Midified Hammond. There is a lot of information about Midifying organ consoles with the MidiBox in the Miditzer Forum under MIDI Electronics. There are other areas where you can find information about how organs work and are played.

I'm certainly no expert on power supplies. I think I've heard that switchers are fussy about the load on the output. Too little load and they can't maintain the correct voltage. A switcher will be more energy efficient but if it were me, I'd just stick with the tried and true unregulated wall wart of adequate capacity (usually a cast off from some old piece of gear that conked out).

I wouldn't say J11 is bad. Bear in mind I have never set up a multi-core system myself. I just recall seeing posts from people who were doing it and having trouble configuring a J11 chain. When they switched to a MIDI chain they got everything working right away. If you use a MIDI chain then everything is according to MIDI standard. The MIDI Out of each board is just what you'd expect. MIDI In is merged with the MIDI generated at that Core. You can use all your MIDI troubleshooting knowledge to deal with any issues, either Core by Core or anywhere in the chain. Plus I'm really big on good mechanical connections and the DIN 5 connector used for MIDI is very good mechanically. Chosen to stand up to the abuse of stage performances. :) Of course you can make your own MIDI cables. But you'll probably get a better cable for less money buying premade if you can. Hosa makes 1 foot MIDI cables. Third party seller Brook Mays has them for $2.31 on US Amazon: # ASIN: B000068NTK # Item model number: MID301BK Exactly. My point is spend a buck and add the PCB mount female DIN socket on the Core and use a male DIN plug rather than the 3 pin SIL connector. I've had nothing but trouble with broken connections to the 3 pin SIL. BTW, if you have an old XT/AT keyboard, you can probably scavenge a cable with a 5 pin male DIN plug at one end from it. Otherwise, buy a long premade MIDI cable, cut it in half, and add your female DIN panel sockets to the cut ends. You probably want 2 cables for DIN and DOUT so you can program the Cores with a panel connection.

Very hard to fry a Core but still a good idea to ask questions before proving me wrong about that. I think you only need 9 DINS (9x32 = 288 inputs). 3x61 + 32 + 68 = 283 but maybe you have more than 5 buttons (pistons)? Also you should have at least one spare DIN and a spare Core if the budget allows for a project of this size. I'll second nILS on tying all grounds together. I think the "optimization" of packing all the keyboards is a poor idea. Start each keyboard at the same place on a DIN board. It will pay big dividends in maintaining your sanity. It doesn't really matter where anything is connected. You can make any input do anything via the configuration table. Use the disjointed spare pins for pistons or stops (pistons are more useful) as you wish. Dealing with 9 scattered pins is no big deal. Dealing with 183 keyboard inputs that are not highly consistent is a nightmare. I recommend using the MIDI connectors and NOT using J11. The reports I have seen from people doing multi-core organ Midifications is that daisy chaining the Core MIDI connections and enabling the MIDIIO128 MIDI Merge is the easier way to go. If each PIC has a unique ID, you can program them while they are connected in a daisy chain. I recommend adding the PCB mount MIDI connectors (no longer included in the Smash Core kit). DIN sockets are better mechanical connections than SIL connectors. Even you are going to use panel mount MIDI sockets, I recommend using half of a MIDI cable to connect the panel socket to the Core MIDI socket. This also makes it easier to work with a bare Core board if the need arises. While only 5 pins are absolutely necessary, Smash provides 10 pin DIL connectors. Use 10 pin IDC connectors on ribbon cable to interconnect the boards. DIL connectors are better mechanically than SIL connectors. As of R4 DOUT and R5 DIN, Smash has set up the DIN and DOUT boards so they can be freely intermixed in one chain using the 10 pin connectors.

AFAIK a 9 VDC / 1A unregulated power supply should be enough to sustain 3 MIDIO128 and 1 LCD. I won't do any damage if it is not. In general, I strongly recommend adding the LCD display to the first Core you build. If the power supply is not adequate, you'll see the display getting flaky. A quick check of the voltage on the 5V regulated side will tell you if you have run out of power. If you do, just add a second supply for one of the three MidiBoxes.

Search for QBas. He successfully expanded to a 32x32 matrix with velocity sensing.

Here are some sites about building a pipe organ that might be of interest: www.rwgiangiulio.com Another home organ builder

The cited patent does disclose turning off conflicting notes for a short time. The patent says 40 - 70 mSec is a the preferred range for the off time. In theatre organs, no attempt is made to do anything about the missing attack due to note collisions. The repeat on the colliding pipes just disappears. That is probably one reason some classical organists so despise theatre organs. However, theatre organists expect that behavior and other results of unification and they have to adapt to the lack of unification on classical organs. When you go to MIDI to control theatre organs there is a problem at the off end. MIDI is stateless, nothing depends on the state of the controlled MIDI instrument. If a MIDI instrument receives a MIDI Note Off, it just turns that note off. In a unified organ, if a note has been turned on by two Note On messages because the note is being used twice, then the note should not be turned off until you get a second Note Off message. So a unified MIDI organ has to be stateful and remember how many times a note has been turned on. John, does the YAPPI board manage the multiple note on issue?

It seems you are no stranger to the pipe part of this. For most people what you propose would be difficult to complete. But it seems you have thought it through. Best of luck with that considerable undertaking. Coming back to your original question about the Midibox electronics. When I wrongly assumed that you wanted a console for a virtual organ project, I assumed that the relay functions--turning stops on and off, handling couplers, etc.--would be done by the virtual organ in a computer. That probably won't be the case with a pipe organ project. Somewhere an electrically driven pipe organ needs logic which is called the relay, to combine the keypresses and the stops and produce the signals to drive the pipes. There are many ways a relay can be implemented. John's YAPPI boards, if I understand them correctly, distribute the relay function to the pipe chests. I think they all receive a MIDI data stream from a console, recognize the stops and maybe the couplers that apply to their pipes, and then translate the keypresses into signals to turn pipes on and off. Whatever you select as your relay to connect your console to your pipes, make sure it is something you understand thoroughly. Things get confusing quickly in organ electrical systems. If you are not fully comfortable with your system, it will quickly turn into a nightmare. As for things like a player/recorder and a scoring system, you are probably best off if you set up your system to use fairly standard MIDI out of your console to connect to the balance of the organ. You can use Midibox MIDIIO128 to create the MIDI in the console. From there you can do things with a computer for record/playback and scoring (sequencing). You can do your console first and use it to play a virtual organ until the pipes are ready.

Making your own pipes is a considerable undertaking. Getting the quality of wood you need in the sizes you need to make the bass pipes is likely to be impossible for a home builder. And you are unlikely to find an odd two used pipes to extend a rank below the lowest 16' C because now you are talking about pipes from a 32' foot rank and those are quite rare. Also quite big. People usually have trouble enough fitting a stopped 16' C in a home. If doing things like having transposition beyond the normal ranges of pipes is important to you, then you should seriously consider a virtual organ. They can sound quite good these days and they allow you to have things you could never manage at home with real pipes. If having real pipes is important, then you should stick to the tried and true as it will make it easier to find your parts. As to your choice of ranks, I'm surprised to see both a Flute and a Bourdon. In the theatre organ world those are just different ranges of the same pipes. With so few ranks wouldn't you want something with a more distinct tone color? Perhaps some sort of string pipe?

P.S. I would suggest you download the Miditzer Style 150 theatre organ and study it. This is a 5 rank theatre organ so it is just a little bit bigger than what your are planning. It has these pipes: Trumpet 8' 61 pipes Tibia Clausa 8' 85 pipes Salicional 8' 73 pipes Flute 16' 97 pipes Vox Humana 8' 61 pipes Note that it is heavily unified but the stops on each manual are not identical. If you were to replace the Tibia with a Diapason and drop the Vox, you might have a good start on a 4 rank classical organ.