nILS Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 Perhaps you would be so kind as to suggest an alternative layout (manual) for the sake of demonstration?That was not really the plan. I was merely trying to point out to bugfight, that an autorouter does create long, parallel traces and his "wrong" is wrong not really a good answer. Anyways I attached something (not the exact same layout as I hadn't saved it). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryd_one Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 Heh that's full of parallel traces!Still the point should be demonsttrated to those unfamiliar with autorouter that nILS' layout is FAR more clean looking, and that's a good thing. And just to spark a new debate - I would have avoided the vias in a similar fashion to the autorouter. Moral of the story:Vias suck. And the autorouter can give you good ideas.But manual routing is much nicer in the endNow I'm being an opinionated troll :D But I do think that all sides of this discussion are valid and I think it's an interesting debate.... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nILS Posted August 1, 2008 Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 [me=nILS Podewski]leaves troll mode. [/me] Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted August 1, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 1, 2008 Well, my plan is to try routing manually this weekend, so, assuming I don't suck at it, I suppose that might be a good comparison. *shrug* I wonder why auto-routers suck so much? I mean, isn't that a task a computer is supposed to be able to do in superior fashion to humans? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nILS Posted August 2, 2008 Report Share Posted August 2, 2008 Autorouters don't suck by definition. Most of them do. And most of the users suck at taming them. Look at your computers motherboard for a second. Do you think this was manually routed? I doubt it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryd_one Posted August 2, 2008 Report Share Posted August 2, 2008 isn't that a task a computer is supposed to be able to do in superior fashion to humans?That's what I thought at first too... there's too many variables, it needs that human fuzzy logic thing going on.You may like to try freerouting.net, it's interesting to watch if nothing else... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugfight Posted August 2, 2008 Report Share Posted August 2, 2008 Autorouters don't suck by definition. Most of them do. And most of the users suck at taming them. Look at your computers motherboard for a second. Do you think this was manually routed? I doubt it.ahhhh glad you have come to your senses.i accept your apology... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nILS Posted August 2, 2008 Report Share Posted August 2, 2008 ahhhh glad you have come to your senses.i accept your apology...Stop antagonizing me. I didn't say they are bad in the first place, I said he shouldn't use them. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryd_one Posted August 2, 2008 Report Share Posted August 2, 2008 Totally missed these questions sorry!well, the "who cares" part bothers me.what exactly are we not caring about?Not caring about any supposed 'benefits' of manual routing/not caring about what trace-tetris players say/etc. You can think of it as "manual routing is for suckers" or "autoroute rules" or whatever, the words don't matter, you get the meaning.faik it's how pretty the pcb is. in fact the "prettier" pcb may have real issues.Unlikely. The 'prettiness' is a visual effect evident of the fact that the traces were laid by paying close attention. If you set the autorouter rules up properly like you've mentioned, you can get a very pretty layout too, and again, it's because the designer was paying attention. Sure if the designer doesn't know to avoid for example long parallel traces, they might wind up in the layout... But that's 'pilot error', and it'll happen with or without the autorouter. Point is, if the layout has been carefully crafted, it will show in the screenshot ;)I can see why you got confused by the word pretty though - often the evidence of such craftsmanship is aesthetically displeasing. The first thing that springs to mind is someone talking to ultra in the chat, saying that the IIC traces were not symmetrical, and he instantly said "they were but I moved them for some reason". He couldn't remember what it was, but the point is, it was aesthetically "ugly", but if one follows the traces they'll quickly see that it's a good way to workaround a a tricky pinout or something, and is actually kinda "pretty" after all :) Happens all the time...it does take some work to tame the beast and maybe beginners should avoid it...I think that this is one thing we all agree on. anywayz, you can go ahead and change to:3) nobody should care how pretty it is, go ahead and use the autorouter.Maybe you can just mentally replace the word "pretty" with "carefully crafted". Nice attitude dude, what's up with you in this thread? Chill, Winston :)Edit: fixed typos Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bugfight Posted August 2, 2008 Report Share Posted August 2, 2008 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted August 2, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 2, 2008 Wow. After having completely routed the entire board manually, I have to admit, it looks MUCH better! Hopefully I didn't do any wrong :) I am thinking about putting more of the wires on the bottom but otherwise I think it looks good! Thoughts?bankstick.pdfbankstick.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryd_one Posted August 3, 2008 Report Share Posted August 3, 2008 Much tidier looking... Hmm, the traces seem a bit thin... and the ones that go between the pins could maybe go around the chips if you like? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted August 3, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 3, 2008 You think so? I picked the smallest traces that the auto-router used so I figured it might be ok. You are right though, I probably can work around the pins instead of in-between. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nILS Posted August 3, 2008 Report Share Posted August 3, 2008 The traces are 12mil. I'd go with 16+. Same goes for the "isolate" setting of the ground plane. Raise it to 16mil. Generally bigger is better with traces. You can add another plane to the top layer as an isolation plane - just a ploygon that's not named.And there's some airwires (== unrouted connections, the yellow lines), make sure to route those!It's getting there :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted August 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 Indeed! I didn't realized Eagle failed to connect runs if you run a wire over a point without stopping. I fixed those issues, and was also able to re-route items around the pin headers (for the most part) though I am still working on that. Got some more to do so I'll submit an update hopefully soon, though it's going to be a busy work week for me :/ Silly work getting in the way of awesome hobbies :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lylehaze Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 M00Dawg,The best part of this is that you get real perspective on the circuit layout process. Next time you see a PCB, you'll better appreciate the choices that went into it. I never noticed circuit board layouts until I had designed a few. I never noticed the build quality of cars until I had spent some time in a few assembly plants.As far as routing options, like so many other things, neither extreme is as useful as finding some middle ground between the two.I'm ashamed of how many boards I made with full autorouting before I found out that manual interaction is allowed. I'm still learning the best ways to do it.And regardless of how it was routed, I still visually inspect every trace against my "netlist" before sending a board off. While looking at the board, with all layers displayed,use the "show" tool (an eyeball) and click on each component lead. You can visually see all connections from there. Follow the leader and you should be able to check everything.Have Fun,LyleHaze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted August 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 I would agree! It's both science, art, and skill all at the same time. I already have a better appreciation for these things (and heck, I already had appreciation even before trying to build a board of my own). Heck, it's taken me over a week just to get this far with a fairly simple circuit :)It's exciting though! I can't wait to get this guy printed. If this works out, I think I may try to complicate things further and go for a CORE + 2 SID optimized board to be used for SID channels 2-4 on the MB-SID. I looked at the schematics, however, I figured I'd better take things one step at a time :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nILS Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 A core + 2 SID board is already pretty advanced I would say. I have been working on mine for about 2 weeks until it kinda looked like it would work. That reminds me, I really need to get one made... ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted August 4, 2008 Author Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 Well if it took you two weeks, it'll likely take me months :) First things first, though, getting my bankstick and C64 PSU boards in my hands. If I can have success from there, maybe I'll start to venture out :)I don't suppose your CORE + 2SID design is going to be offered up to the general MidiBox community? ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
lylehaze Posted August 4, 2008 Report Share Posted August 4, 2008 Even though there have been some delays, it looks like I'll get to order my proto set of V2 MBMixer boards this week.So maybe you guys will have something to mix down all your audio sources. :-)I am VERY proud of the board designs, but I don't know how well they would hold up under the scrutiny of this thread. M00, you've handled the "constructive advice" very well.As my mixer goes, the hand-wired prototypes sound pretty darn good, and have been in 24/7 use for over a year now. If I can get fidelity out of that rats nest of wiring, I expect the carefully routed 2 sided boards with a shield flood-fill should be as quiet as an optical mouse.Time will tell,LyleHaze Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted September 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 Well, I got my boards in! I stuffed one tonight with chips and everything is good to go! I haven't tested the external bank yet (not really high in my to-do at the moment) and I did run into an issue with the ground plan. Though Eagle didn't show it, there's a gap where two wire tracks actually split the plane due to their close proximity to each other. Doh! So I had to run a wire from the ground pin to one of the IC sockets so re-connect the ground-plane to, well, ground :) As a result, I'm going to update the board layout. I'm thinking about rotating the chips horizontally since I think that will actually simplify wiring. I plan on posting pictures at some point as well.In any case, if anyone wants the board layout and/or schematic, I'd be happy to provide it! I'll probably posting an update as well once I have time to play around with it again (I have some other boards I need to make for other parts of the synth at the moment). Some other MidiBoxers have been making their own boards as well, so there's plenty of options for people wanting boards of their own! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nILS Posted September 5, 2008 Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 It appears the fab used a different set of design rules than you. Lesson learned: next time, get theirs and punch the values into eagle to check your design :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted September 5, 2008 Author Report Share Posted September 5, 2008 Yep :) batchpcb.com (which is the fab placed I used) does have a nice how-to on setting things up correctly in Eagle, but it doesn't include the design rules - rather it includes things like how to properly silkscreen the thing and output it into the proper machine files they use. Oh well :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RobR Posted September 11, 2008 Report Share Posted September 11, 2008 Yep :) batchpcb.com (which is the fab placed I used) does have a nice how-to on setting things up correctly in Eagle, but it doesn't include the design rules - rather it includes things like how to properly silkscreen the thing and output it into the proper machine files they use. Oh well :)What are the PCB rules and limits?2 or 4 layer boards - 0.062" FR4 material2 Layer sizing: 8mil spacing minimum8mil traces minimum20mil minimum drill size 4 Layer sizing: 6mil spacing minimum6mil traces minimum13mil minimum drill size 500mil maximum drill sizeNo internal routes' date=' no v-scoringBoard is routed to the indicated border (very clean edges, you can get creative with the shape as well!)Soldermask both sides1oz CopperNo limit on the number of viasNo limit on pads or componentsMultiple designs, multiple copies are allowed!Any size up to 10x15", measured in inch incrementsMinimum billable size 1x1" (smaller boards are allowed but rounded up)Your design can be any size - board size is rounded up to the nearest inch Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nILS Posted September 11, 2008 Report Share Posted September 11, 2008 PWND.;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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