Preferred CAD programs (electronic & drafting)

[madox]

Hi folk,

I am currently looking around for new CAD solutions for myself, and my work, and thought I would ask here for people's experiences/opinons. I have mostly used older versions of Protel, and in my previous job used a recent version of Altium Designer. The results from Protel/Altium are fine, though the software has some annoying behaviours, and the latest version is expensive, over-featured for me, and very slow to run. I used EAGLE a little, some time ago. I have not tried other big name products such as PADS. I am likely to be learning a new package, which is not a major concern for me.

I am also looking for a low (or no) cost drafting program, probably 2D only, though 3D would be nice, for the right price. I have used Autocad LT and Autodesk, though these are a little hard for me to justify the purchase of for my needs.

I have been leaning lowards purchasing the latest EAGLE 5, as it does seem to offer better value for money, for what I want. I don't really need all the functions of Altium, and definitely don't need the price of Altium. I know a few people here use EAGLE, though some here don't rate it as their preferred option. Can anyone share some thoughts in this?

I also like having the option of running EAGLE on a Linux distro, which is where I may be doing some other work, such as 2D drafting. I mainly use Linux at home, which is further motivation for this.

The main option I have been looking at for drafting is QCAD, which has a pretty well featured free version under Linux. I haven't used QCAD a lot, though it seems to work well enough, and is not too different from what I have done with AutoCAD LT. Mostly I am drawing electrical looms, block diagrams, installation diagrams, panel/metal work design, etc. Does anyone have any suggestions for low cost solutions for this?

Thanks for any help, or opinions. If I can learn from other people's experiences with these matters, that would be a great help.

Cheers,

madox

[cimo]

I happily use Inkscape and Kicad

[Phattline]

I work @ work with Autodesk Autocad 2008,

I use it @ one run for Frontpanel Design....

I first, design my PCB with Eagle, (it was hard work to learn that fuc""in progam!), I then export it as a dxf, I inport it in Autotesk Autocad 2008 or 2006 (its allmost the same)

I then make a Case and a Frontpanel for my Midibox.

I also had done, simple shematics like a midibox 64 with 100mm Faderpotis.... in Autocad 2008, it is very easy.... Just use 3D blocks (selfmade - with datasheets) and place it, now make a new layer for Routings.... then make a new layer for Case, then a new for distance cylinders....and so on... after a while you have 3D prototype of your Midibox...I never realysed frontpanels, for that things I never found a zero-cost fried with a CNC  ;) ....

I learnt Autocad 2008 for my Work (CAD-Projectant) in 1 week I learned how to draw... after 2 years, I know all about it, from dynamic blocks from how to use Layers best make your own Patterns, macros.... to Work ultra fast With multibuttons mouses and 3d controllers.....

I like the programm much---but If you have to pay for it---Its to expensive for DIY (I am happy cause after work - inwork I can work legal on a ACAD 2008)

[nILS]

Eagle and Inkscape here. For 3D stuff I use 3DSMax.

[stryd_one]

Inkscape and kicad here. My advice: Figure out what are the most capabilities you will require, even in the future, and go with that one. It sucks to change apps when you're already accustomed to something, but it can't do what you want.

[Doug Wellington]

I went through this very thing earlier this year.  :)

You may have to experiment a bit to see what work flow is best for you.  I'm truly cross-platform and I use OS X, Linux and Windows.  I wanted something that would be cheap and portable, yet I'm willing to pay for something if it works.  Here are some of the things I tried:

PCB layout:

Eagle

gEDA

Kicad

Kicad and gEDA work great if you're not on a Mac.  :(  Fighting to get them working was losing me time, money and sleep, (I want to layout boards, not recompile software - I do that enough at the day job!) so I went ahead with the full version of Eagle.  I'm still learning it, but I think I made the right choice - it's the most common program in DIY circles, there are lots of Eagle projects out there on the web to download, and it works on all three platforms I use.  Plus, I'm a POVray user, so I like Eagle 3D - http://www.matwei.de/doku.php?id=en:eagle3d:eagle3d

2D Graphics/Panel design:

CorelDraw

Front Panel Designer

Illustrator

Inkscape

This is especially an area where there is no winner or loser (of course, if you're using Linux, you get to choose Inkscape, and Mac users get to choose from Illustrator or Inkscape).  I do my own silkscreening, and for whatever reason, pretty much the whole silkscreen world uses Corel, so it's easier to go with the flow.  Illustrator and Inkscape are fine as well - knowing Illustrator isn't a bad thing, especially in the professional graphics world, and of course, Inkscape has the best price, although it seems as if the Inkscape native file format is on the wane.

Now, if you're going to have a lot of panels made, it may be worth downloading Front Panel Designer from Schaeffer or Front Panel Express.  (It only works on Windows - did you get your free copy of Codeweavers CrossOver yesterday?)  The program itself is free and makes it easy to design panels and have them made - you just email the design file to the company and you get that panel delivered to you exactly as you designed it - great for prototypes or small quantities.  For larger quantities from a cheaper vendor, or if you want to have them drill your panel and have someone else do the painting/marking/screening, you can buy a DXF file export add in from them for $150.  I use that DXF export tool a lot myself - makes it so much easier to transfer info to Corel, TurboCAD, use in my own CNC tools, etc...

CAD/3D design:

AutoCAD/AutoSketch

Blender

POVray

Rhino

Sketchup

SolidWorks

TurboCAD

Wings3D

I looked into a lot of different CAD programs, but I decided I really wanted something that supports 3D.  You can divide the 3D world into different parts - modeling and rendering, etc - lets look at modeling.  OK, if you're looking for free 3D, look no further than Blender.  Great product, great support.  Only problem is it doesn't really play nice with anyone else.  Sigh.  Other modelers I looked at were Rhino, Sketchup and Wings.  (Let's go reverse alpha order on this...)  Wings3D is a free subdivision modeler and works quite well, other than the fact that it doesn't import or export DXF files.  Sketchup is another free tool, this one from the evil empire over at Google - it's great for quick mock-ups, especially when you use the "draw-a-geometric-figure-and-extrude-it" method.  Again, output file formats are limited, but you can buy "Sketchup Pro" for $500 and get the ability to work with DXF files.  (I'm getting ahead of myself here, but TurboCAD can read SketchUp files, so if you use TurboCAD you won't need the Pro version of Sketchup.)  Rhino...ah, Rhino, what a great program!  I think this is one of the finest modeling programs available.  It uses NURBS, which means you end up with superior curved surfaces.  Other modelers use polygons, so if you want a tight curve, you have to use more and more polygons to simulate that.  Rhino is usable for both 3D modeling and CAD work - you can design with as much accuracy as any other CAD program.

Speaking of CAD programs, well, there are a lot of those too.  Solid Works is the current king of the heap, along with a couple other high end packages (Pro/E, AutoCAD, etc).  Sadly, Solid Works *starts* at $4000 (US) and goes up rapidly.  AutoCAD isn't really much cheaper.  While not as glamorous as Solid Works or Pro/E, TurboCAD is definitely the low price leader.  I was about to buy TurboCAD Mac for ~$150, when they had a sale on TurboCAD Pro.  (If you can wait for the sales, you can save quite a bit of money on TurboCAD! Download a demo and get on their mailing list...)  With version 15.2, TurboCAD just added support for importing Rhino files too.

Before I forget, back to 3D rendering for a minute.  I use POVray, since it uses a text file for scene description.  (And it's free, which doesn't hurt!)  Most of the pictures at http://www.midiboxaddict.com/mb808/case were created with POVray.  If you're a programmer, you should be able to learn POVray in an evening.  I really like it for rendering panels, since the text input file is very specific about locations, and if you use variables as in other programming languages, you can easily modify row or column positions, knob sizes, etc, by changing one global and re-rendering.

OK, recap - I use Eagle for schematic and PCB work with POVray and Eagle3D for pretty pictures, Front Panel Designer for panels, Sketchup for cases, CorelDraw for graphics, and TurboCAD to tie it all together.  Works for me...

[TheAncientOne]

Though I haven't used it myself yet, (needs XP and I run on Windows 2000), Siemens "Solid Edge 2D" is free, and I have heard some good thigs about it from one of the local colleges. It will import/translate a wide range of files too.

www_plm_automation_siemens_com - Solid Edge 2D

[madox]

Hi everyone,

Thanks for the great responses.

I had looked at KiCAD and gEDA briefly before. I thought both looked like capable programs. From my brief use of gEDA, I didn't much like the user interface. For KiCAD, if memory serves, it seemed quite reasonable to use, though the documentation was a bit lacking. I am a fan of well documented programs. I also don't mind having to pay a reasonable amount for good software that I will use a lot. Support such as extensive librarys and good documentation will often reduce costs in the long run.

I will have a further look at KiCAD and gEDA though. I would be more likely to use KiCAD as I may have need to operate within Windows. EAGLE still seems to have some advantages for me, though.

For my drafting work, presentation and display is not such a big issue. Any 3D work would be primarily basic geometric modelling. Rendering is not a major concern, provided I have sufficient information to read geometric relationships between the objects I'm dealing with. Most of my work in this area will be preparing drawings for documentation (not CAM), and some metal work drawings for CNC milling by a third party machine shop.

I will definitely get myself on the TurboCAD mailing list, thanks Doug.

I hadn't actually thought much about panel graphics. In the past, I have always had a graphic designer to work with me on that side of things. I may have to learn some basic use of a graphics package, and I will certainly look into the options that you have all listed here.

Cheers guys. Much appreciated.

madox

[madox]

...Siemens "Solid Edge 2D" is free, and I have heard some good thigs about it...

Hi,

Thanks for this. I will try this out at work this week. Sounds interesting indeed.

Cheers

madox

[arumblack]

There are eagle scripts that will convert libraries to kicad, and schematics too. haven't tried the one for the schematic, but the library seems to work. Also you can find on the web that someone has already converted the libraries. I started learning Kicad because it can do boards of any size. I am still getting used to it and am much better in eagle, alas I can not pay the price for the unlimited version of eagle.

As for CAD, I use VISIO, FPD, & Sketchup.  VISIO is great for front panel layouts (I drill them myself so far)it can save as DWG or DXF, though I have not tried that feature yet. FPD I find to be a pain to use and Schaffer panels seem expensive to me (thought they look better than any I have ever made. Sketchup is just easy to use and I have done a lot of things with it, its great for "Will this Fit" scenarios. Some hate it because it is google and cripple ware, but It works for me. I have not tried wings 3d yet, even though I installed it with KiCAD.

[Doug Wellington]

alas I can not pay the price for the unlimited version of eagle.

Yes, many people have complained about that.  But Eagle is cheaper than all the other really good programs...

FPD I find to be a pain to use and Schaffer panels seem expensive to me

What do you find to be painful about it?  I rather like it myself.  And yes, the panels are expensive, but you have to remember that they are making a very small number of panels (probably one, right?) for you, and they will ship quickly.  If you want large numbers of panels, there are cheaper places to go.

Sketchup is just easy to use and I have done a lot of things with it, its great for "Will this Fit" scenarios. Some hate it because it is google and cripple ware, but It works for me.

How is it cripple ware?  Do you mean because it doesn't read or write other file formats?  It's a great combination with TurboCAD...

[stryd_one]

But Eagle is cheaper than all the other really good programs...

Yeh, I think that if you have a bit of cash to spare, eagle is a pretty clear winner.

How is it cripple ware?

Because the "Pro" (aka "uncrippled") version is not crippled, but the free version is.

[arumblack]

Stryd_one: Youv'e hit the nail on the head with both comments above.

Doug: Maybe I just need to spend more time with FPD, but It seems difficult to measure things acuratley without doing lots of X-Y coordinate math. If I am just going to drill the panel myself, I can use VISIO, and I can whip right through it. How do you "Array Shapes" (a VISIO Command that can easily create repetitive rows and columns with precise placement) in FPD? That's really my biggest gripe.

AS for sketchup you will notice that I said I like it and use it a lot, despite being cripple ware.

And for KiCAD, I tried the eagle to kicad schematic converter ULP but it fails always and leaves and incomplete schematic. Apparently others have complained about this and the name it seems is not going to fix it. funny that CADSoft would let it stay on thier website if it doesn't work.

If I could afford Eagle, I would use it, no doubt. But I want to do large CS layouts so.........

[stryd_one]

And for KiCAD, I tried the eagle to kicad schematic converter ULP but it fails always and leaves and incomplete schematic. Apparently others have complained about this and the name it seems is not going to fix it. funny that CADSoft would let it stay on thier website if it doesn't work.

I'm surprised they leave a tool for migrating to the free competition on their site in the first place! So, leaving t there and broken, might convince people not to migrate. But ... it worked for me...?

If you need to use kicad (want big boards, have not a spare 4 figure sum of cash) find my post with my bookmarks, and also visit the chat.

[madox]

Hi Guys,

I really appreciate the discussion which is ensuing here. This is just the kind of dialogue which I was hoping for, to help guide my decisions.

...but It seems difficult to measure things acuratley without doing lots of X-Y coordinate math. If I am just going to drill the panel myself, I can use VISIO, and I can whip right through it. How do you "Array Shapes" (a VISIO Command that can easily create repetitive rows and columns with precise placement) in FPD? That's really my biggest gripe.

Thanks for this comment. I haven't used FPD much at all (and I am very unlikely to order their panels), though the type of operation you have described is something I frequently perform with packages such as AutoCAD LT. I'm not a huge fan of AutoCAD, though it is what I had to learn, and it is not bad for 2D metal work drawings, once familiar with the program.

I think a schematic converter would be a really tricky program to write well. So much of a schematic is presentation, annotation, layout directives, etc. There is so much more required than part symbols and a net list, for a complex design. I certainly wouldn't want to rely on such a program. I'm usually pretty pricky with how I present my schematics, as I think they should be easy to read, at least in an abstracted sense, even for someone who doesn't understand all the intricacies of the electronics.

The budget issue for me, really comes down to me making a reasonable recommendation to my employer. I don't want to rely on software which is going to hinder my productivity. I also can't reasonably ask for the most expensive, best featured software available, as my employer won't really be making a lot of money from the hardware which I provide. It is really a service company, and we need some custom hardware to support the service. I am planning for more ambitious future hardware and software development, than what we currently do, though I can't see there being any significant hindrance to my plans, from choosing EAGLE over Altium or PADS. I actually think Altium has grown a little too fancy. I am also still a little mistrustful of all one simulations which is tries to offer. I'm yet to see this sort of functionality handle electrical fault conditions well. Anyway, I guess ease of productivity and value for money are what I'm looking for.

If you need to use kicad (want big boards, have not a spare 4 figure sum of cash) find my post with my bookmarks, and also visit the chat.

Hi stryd_one, I'm sorry I don't understand what you are refering to, by 'finding your post with your bookmarks'?

There are a few programs discussed here, which are new to me, and which I will be trying out over the next week. Inkscape, Sketchup, and TurboCAD 2D are all definitely of interest. If I have time, I will work through some others too.

Thanks again for your suggestions and comments. Much appreciated.

madox

[Goblinz]

If you need to use kicad (want big boards, have not a spare 4 figure sum of cash) find my post with my bookmarks, and also visit the chat.

Hi stryd_one, I'm sorry I don't understand what you are refering to, by 'finding your post with your bookmarks'?

[arumblack]

I'm surprised they leave a tool for migrating to the free competition on their site in the first place! So, leaving t there and broken, might convince people not to migrate. But ... it worked for me...?

If you need to use kicad (want big boards, have not a spare 4 figure sum of cash) find my post with my bookmarks, and also visit the chat.

Hmm. it worked for you? Did you have to do anything special? Did you have to have the same libraries converted to kiCAD? I always get an error "Component end expected at line 782, aborted" when opening in eeschema. what version of EAGLE/KiCAD? It fails on both my setup at home and work. I have eagle 5.0 at work, 5.2 at home. Kicad is version 2007-11-29-c.

As for the chat, well I have a not so good internet connection at home, and I think it may be frowned upon to chat at work. maybe if I had a work related project.....

And to the OP: I think if your work is footing the bill, you should go for EAGLE, just get quotes for Protel, Pads, Mentor Graphics stuff so you can say that it is a good deal ;) Which it is.

[stryd_one]

I'm using the latest (at the time I did it) kicad nightly - get rid of that version you've got, it's old and crap. Run the nightlies, they're a VAST improvement. Also, yeh, I have the full set of eagle libs imported to kicad, so maybe that's why it worked too...

[arumblack]

Are there nightly's for windows? the ones I come across are Linux.....And I'm not using Linux yet. I downloaded a more curent 2008-09-06 r1238 version for windows and will try that. I had the converted eagle libraries for the components that weren't already in kicad, I'll try the new version and if it still fails I'll add the other libraries.

Thanks,

AB

[stryd_one]

http://kicad.sourceforge.net/

Try the very top of the page in the bright yellow box ;)

heheheheh

Edit oh, you got that... yeh theyre not nightly nightlies... "test build" blah... nightly/snapshot/test/beta/pick your terminology :D

[madox]

Hi folks,

Just thought I would mention another EDA suite, DipTrace, that I have come accross recently.

A number of reviews described it as having an intuitive user interface. As this is in stark contrast to EAGLE, I thought some may be interested. DipTrace has a pattern based library part generator, which has recieved quite some praise in reviews.

DipTrace has a free version, and some cheapish versions too, and the full suite is ~$US700.00. I believe the only restriction in the free version is a 250 pin limit.

DipTrace comes with a Windows executable, with Wine compatibility. Wine compatibility is specified by the vendor, and has received positive reviews.

DipTrace has recieved some criticism from professional EAGLE users for certain behaviours. It seems that EAGLE is generally more highly regarded amongst low budget professional designers. I think this may be mostly due to EAGLE being more established in the market.

I will give DipTrace a try at home, though my employer has gone ahead and purchased EAGLE for my use at work. I think DipTrace would probably be suitable for a lot of hobby work.

-madox

[nILS]

I believe the only restriction in the free version is a 250 pin limit.

True, but... 250pins is simply not enough. That's even worse than eagle's 80x100mm restriction.

DipTrace is neat though, and for everyone that's undecided definitely worth a shot!

[madox]

...250pins is simply not enough. That's even worse than eagle's 80x100mm restriction.

I agree, it is not enough for most serious work, but it is enough to learn and play with. I imagine some of the MIDIBox PCBs would have fewer than 250 pins, though I haven't checked.

DipTrace is neat though, and for everyone that's undecided definitely worth a shot!

The upside with this would be that the full version is still relatively affordable. I think a good UI can provide a lot of value.

I'm off to have a play with it now...