Budget monitors

[madox]

Hi,

Forever, I have wanted to buy some really good studio monitor speakers. I have never had anything even close to decent listening speakers, let alone a reference monitor. I guess most people here can relate to translating a mix on crappy peaked speakers, with terrible room accustics, and trying to reference against any other sound source available, like some moderately priced headphones. It just damn hard work.

I blew my first pair of speakers when experimenting with some low frequency resonance from my 202. It just ripped through the cones. Later my friend passed me a compressor with limiter for a low price, but my speakers were already dud.

I picked up some Wharfedales recently, which someone was throwing out. They have a really woody resonance, which sound quite sweet and mellow for classical music, but is really colouring the sound, and one speaker of the pair only has its tubby 10" woofer operating.

Anyway, I decided to trawl ebay from some cheapy monitors, and picked up some Alesis M1 Active MkII's. They are in the post now. I will give these an overhaul when I get them, fully expecting them to need some repairs, as they are a bit notorious that way. Most likely I will mod the power board for heat management, and replace the tweeters with new ones.

I have heard the M1's many times in shops, and while I have never been impressed with them, they seemes neutral enough. From memory, they have a bit of a low-mid frequency resonance, and they lack clarity and detail, and have pretty limited sound imaging properties. Despite this, I can't help but feel a bit excited about the prospect of using the speakers.

So, just wondered, what are other people's experiences with budget monitors? There seems to be a damn lot of them around now. Many times I have read some generous reviews online, and gone out to a shop for a listen, only to have my hopes deflated by really lack luster sound, which just doesn't even approach reference characteristics.

I figure I will keep my M1's as a second monitor in the future, when I finally get around to buying something expensive. I think the M1's are neutral enough for that use, once I learn to work with their sound.

While I'm at it, what are your impressions of the high end monitor offerings? I've recently had a listen to some Adams, Events, KRKs, Mackies, Fostex and a few others. I wasn't originally intending to put this in my post, but here is a quick summary of my impressions:

Mackie HR824 MkII - Much better than the MkI's, still a bit lacking in clarity, detail and imaging found in some of the similarly priced speakers. Stacks of bass, and capable of much greater volume than I would look for in a monitor.

Event Opals - Really closed sound, almost muffled sounding, lacking in clarity in highs. Voluminous, of course. Not impressed. Heard these next to some Adams, which really contrasted with the high freq performance

Event ASP8 - I prefer these to the Opals, though I didn't hear them side by side. I previewed these next to the KRK powered V8s (from memory), and HR824 MKII's. These were my favourite from that session. I thought they were generally pretty good, and worth a second listen.

Adam A7's - Heard these next to the Opals, and later next to some Fostex (can't remember which ones), and HR824 Mk II's. The ribbon tweaters give a really wide sweet spot, and very open sound. Good clarity and detail in the highs, I thought. I would say less defined sound imaging than the last Genelecs I heard, though Gens may be a bit flattering in this regard. I didn't hear any really bassy music on these, but my impression was that the bottom end was not as present or apparent as other speakers listed hear. Maybe the PM-11's would improve on this. I thought these were definitely worth a second listen.

KRK Rokit Powered V8s (I think, didn't pay too much attention to these) - Not as bad as I had expected, from the reviews. Plenty of bass and again, more volume than I would need. Detail was better than I expected. Did sound a bit harsh to me. Maybe its like an NS10 thing? I think these speakers would probably bother and fatigue me though. I don't think I would look forward to a studio session on these, as much as I would on some others.

Fostex (I heard a few) - I thought generally pretty decent, but I wouldn't pay retail for these. I only listened briefly to these. They seemed OK, but didn't do much for me in terms of insight to the sound. I completely admit some prejudice here, as Fostex has never been a brand I have gone out of my way to preview. Of course, prejudice is the devil when judging speakers, though.

Well, this ended up being a much longer post than I originally intended. Hope to hear other people's experiences.

Cheers,

madox

[seppoman]

I've got the M1 Actives, too, and for the price tag they're really good. Room imaging and overall sound are quite good - what they'd really need is a bit more highs and a bit less bass to be balanced... The main thing they're lacking in my opinion is some DIP switches or trimmers for highs and lows. It's not like the high frequencies aren't there or aren't precise, they're just a tad not loud enough so it can be fixed with slight equalization. But you can get used to that, I don't really notice their frequency response anymore.

Other monitors:

I really hate the Adam ones. I once spent a day at an AES fair and the guys I was with all hung around at the Adam booth and were fascinated. But in my opinion, this special tweater they've developed is extremely aggressive in the very high frequencies, but then there's a huge gap until the big speaker sets in. So they hurt my ears but don't provide precision in all upper frequencies.

Genelec is another brand everyone is using, but their systems really don't sound good enough for the price tag in my opinion. They're not bad but also exaggerating a bit on the high end and just too expensive.

Fostex - I know a few people using the Fostex monitors and they all like them very much. Supposedly they're good value, I didn't have the chance yet to listen to them for long enough to judge.

S

[stryd_one]

I can't really say anything on this subject that wouldn't be copied from your post madox. Having heard all of them except the adams (they weren't around at the time), I went with the events. The gennys were nice but wow, megabucks....

[madox]

Wow, this is almost the first time I have been part of an online discussion of monitors, where there is some agreement. Cool.

I also didn't really think about buying the Gens, except once when I found a pair of floor stock being sold at less than half price. Unfortunately, at that time, I had just graduated, and had less than no money at all. An issue I have with Gens is that despite the price, I still don't think they are a really good all round monitor. I think they do mids and highs well, with really fantastic imaging, but I haven't heard good lows from any of the Gens I've previewed. I also felt the great imaging might be a bit too flattering of the source.

@seppo Great to hear your impressions of teh M1s. I also felt they are very good value for money, and good enough to keep long term.

Also interesting take on the Adams. I haven't listened to them a lot, or with material which I know really well, but I will be interested to hear them again, in light of your opinion.

I agree with your friends, that Fostex do offer good value for money. I have only ever compared them to much higher priced speakers, so no surprises that I haven't been overly impressed.

@stryd Which Events did you get? ASP8's?

I did a little work with the 20/20 passives my friend had, and I felt they stacked up really well as an all purpose monitor. The passives could be found for a really good price too. My friend had them running with a decent reference amp, but nothing special. Even so, they sounded pretty close to the actives, so the value for money was really good in the settup.

Anyway, I really meant to ask, how do you feel about your Events, after owning them for some time? Have you had the chance to do a side by side comparison between the ASP8's and the 20/20 actives?

Has anyone worked with Tannoys or Dynaudios? I have only heard the lowest end from each of thes companies. My feeling was they didn't really offer the same value for money as some other brands. They certainly have long standing reps, though.

[Kartoshka]

asp8 here...

although being decent speakers and me generally satisfied with them, google 'asp8 rattling' before commitment.

not really an issue if you're not pushing them to high volume or standing too close to them (less than 2m i mean)

[stryd_one]

Wow, this is almost the first time I have been part of an online discussion of monitors, where there is some agreement. Cool.

LOL

Nah I got 20/20 bi-amps. I haven't had a chance to A/B with the new ones myself, but a mate said they're pretty much the same monitor... It kinda makes sense, when event killed the 20/20 line before the ASP8's came out, they had no 8" monitors and I imagine it stung a bit so they re-released them with a name and minor design changes to match the new 6" monitors.

Totally agree with what you said about the gennys too. obviously we have similar tastes in monitors.

I owned a pair of tannoy reveals for about 3 hours before I returned them for a refund  ;)

[TheAncientOne]

I can't afford anything decent either at the moment, though I'm pleased I went with Stryd's recco for the Sennheiser cans, which are my primary reference.

Got a pair of JBL Control 1 Pro's hung on JLM power amp modules which will have to do for now. Amp is in the 'gainclone' style. New cases will mean the speakers sit next to, or on top of the amps, which means minimal speaker leads.

If you are putting the Genelecs in the picture, then perhaps the small Dynaudio speakers should be up there too. Not cheap, but some of the best nearfields I've ever heard, (never heard the big ones). Years ago, doing early digital testing, I had a pair of old PPM2's, with a Hill 'Chameleon' amp, on loan. I was never as unwilling to give something back, ever.  The BM6A's sound amazing. But, like a certain make of car - if you have to ask the price, you probably can't afford them Best UK discount I could see was a tad over £800.

[stryd_one]

The BM5A's sound amazing.

Between you guys I'm going to have to rename this thread the "I have good taste in speakers" thread :D

[nILS]

The BM6A's sound amazing.

??? How did that happen?

[stryd_one]

??? How did that happen?

« Last Edit: Today at 07:12:31 by TheProf »

Heh I didn't even notice it :D

[madox]

I can't afford anything decent either at the moment, though I'm pleased I went with Stryd's recco for the Sennheiser cans, which are my primary reference.

So, which Sennheiser cans are you using? I am also wanting to buy some decent headphones myself. I have a pair of cheapy Sony MDR-XD100's, which I mostly bought for using at work. I've not yet been able to settle on some decent, and affordable headphones for studio work. I was considering spending about $AU200, but haven't done my listening tests yet.

Has anyone here done much work on room accoustics? I've heard some people say that certain speakers are more susceptible to room issues than others. Not sure if that's true, unless the room emphasises an existing problem. I had thought that rear ported/radiated speakers would be a little more sensative to placement issues, and may end up needing a larger room in order to provide sufficient space at the rear.

I'm thinking of building my own monitor stands for the M1's. I'm considering either buying a formstone pedestal from a garden/hardware shop, or making a pedstal using concrete pipe, backfilled, and topped with a slab of some kind. The pre-made type would have the advantage of being more decorative, and also a quick an easy fix, but finding the right quality for a low price is something else. They are often not made with a really flat base for standing on an indoor floor. I don't fancy buying something made for indoors, as I expect there would be the usual decorator tax.

[TheAncientOne]

So, which Sennheiser cans are you using? I am also wanting to buy some decent headphones myself. I have a pair of cheapy Sony MDR-XD100's, which I mostly bought for using at work. I've not yet been able to settle on some decent, and affordable headphones for studio work. I was considering spending about $AU200, but haven't done my listening tests yet.

Has anyone here done much work on room accoustics? I've heard some people say that certain speakers are more susceptible to room issues than others. Not sure if that's true, unless the room emphasises an existing problem. I had thought that rear ported/radiated speakers would be a little more sensative to placement issues, and may end up needing a larger room in order to provide sufficient space at the rear.

I'm thinking of building my own monitor stands for the M1's. I'm considering either buying a formstone pedestal from a garden/hardware shop, or making a pedstal using concrete pipe, backfilled, and topped with a slab of some kind. The pre-made type would have the advantage of being more decorative, and also a quick an easy fix, but finding the right quality for a low price is something else. They are often not made with a really flat base for standing on an indoor floor. I don't fancy buying something made for indoors, as I expect there would be the usual decorator tax.

@Stryd - sorry - I forgot to note I'd edited the typo!

The cans I bought on Stryds recommendation were the HD25's I like them a lot, though they are not as comfortable as my old Beyer DT100's, they sound much better. The DT100's are staying, because they're a sort of industry standard, you can wear them for ages, and most people know what they sound like through them, and can 'allow off'.

The concrete/stone stand idea works very well. If you have a good quality friendly welder, then 2 steel plates welded squarely on the ends of a piece of large bore scrap pipe is good. A good floor contact is some heavyweight vinyl tile stuck on (I never was that keen on spikes). Have a hole cut in the top plate, sand fill it, then stick another tile over the hole to rest the speaker on. I have no pictures, but a set like this built for a friend, and powder coated in 'satin' black look really good. If your were going to serious sonic extremes, a layer of "Deadsheet", that bitumen and lead tile used inside cabs, might further dampen any resonances in the steel plates.

For concrete garden posts, you can always sit them in a tray mould of resin cement to get a proper flat base. Remember the spirit level when you do it.

20cm or 30cm concrete pipe can work well. Top and bottom can be a rectangle of MDF with a MDF disc, just the right diameter to fit into the pipe, glued on to it,Glue the hole assembly into the bottom end of the pipe, you can leave the top one a 'push fit', if you like. Polyurethane glue will stick MDF to concrete (The waterproof suff that foams on setting - Fast Grab is an example. Again sand fill. To avoid mess, the sand can be bagged, using old carrier bags part filled, then knotted. These paint up well too. If you are in a crappy building, do watch the floor loading, though.

Perhaps we need to set up and 'acoustic treatment that works' thread. The 'no eggboxes' thread might be a good idea.

* edited for typos

[SLP]

Talking about concrete and budget monitors, ever thought about something like that?

http://propirate.net/betonboxen/ (unfortunately in german)

http://hackaday.com/2007/01/22/concrete-cast-speakers/ (the same on hackaday)

[stryd_one]

You guys should see MTE's acoustic treatment. Very cool.

As for rear porting vs placement, I've found it doesn't make a whole lot of difference... Given that your speakers should be at least a foot or two away from the wall anyways (unless they're embedded in it), they have enough room to breath regardless... and not much sound comes out of the port to echo off the wall behind them, as you know it's just a 'breathing hole', not a 'sound hole'.

Madox if you're after some nice cans but the HD25s are out of price range, definitely consider the Sony (Yeh, can you believe it) MDR-V6 (aka MDR-7506) or if you want to bling up slightly the V9 (aka 7509). They don't have the highs of the HD25s and definitely not the mids, they colour/enhance a little (yeh they are still sony), but the lows are really good and all-round they are a good pair of cans, for damn cheap (compared to the alternatives). I don't know if I'd recommend them as a 'monitor headphone' (in quotes cause there's no such animal)  but they are really good.

[MTE]

Perhaps we need to set up and 'acoustic treatment that works' thread. The 'no eggboxes' thread might be a good idea.

That is a great idea! Im in :)

You guys should see MTE's acoustic treatment. Very cool.

:)

It will be photographed and documented when its finished.Im very busy in study/experimenting room treatment in the last weeks, but I need more to learn (perfect calibrating for measuring-mic etcetc)...its very hard for me math-noob :)

ATM I have the feeling my control-room looses gain, but panorama, clearness etc sounds awesome....but lets discuss this in a new topic :)

Edit : oops, btw my monitors are Syrincs M3-220

[Kartoshka]

The 'no eggboxes' thread might be a good idea.

+1

[madox]

I just got my used Alesis M1 active Mk2's home tonight, and am listening to Union Jack There Will Be No Armageddon on them as I type. Have to say, I'm pretty pleased with them. I don't think they are amazing, but they are the best speakers I have owned.

I listened to a few tracks from an old Rising High Records album on them first, and was really underwhelmed with the sound. However, I new this was not a very well produced album. Listening to the more recent Platypus album next to it, really does show a huge difference in fidelity.

So, I suspect the monitors are providing more useful feedback than I was getting from all my previous electro-accustic transducers. My Sony headphones for example, will also reveal that the Rising High album is not well produced, but it still sounds much more sonically exciting on the cans.

The amps on the M1's have plenty of power for my monitoring needs. I definitely can't see myself needing to go above 0.3 of the maximum gain.

Now, I'll have to see when I can get around to giving the speakers an overhaul. Funds permitting, I will order new tweeters. I will also sort out an issue with heat management in this design, and most likely be swapping some old caps too.

I've got the speakers sitting on foam isolation plates on my rather boomy desk at the moment, so I will be looking into some stands for these soon, too.

[Kartoshka]

I've got the speakers sitting on foam isolation plates on my rather boomy desk at the moment, so I will be looking into some stands for these soon, too.

SpeakerDudes

[img width=800]http://www.sweetwater.com/images/items/1800/SpeakDudeHD-xlarge.jpg

http://www.auralex.com/sound_isolation_speakerdudes/speakerdudes.asp

This is foam isolation i had my eye on. Eventually, found another, free solution with similar heavy-duty foam which came with industrial-grade speakers i installed not-so-long ago in past.

stands... each of my monitors is 15Kg, so after considering risks i put them on those podiums.

[madox]

[img width=800]http://www.sweetwater.com/images/items/1800/SpeakDudeHD-xlarge.jpg

Yep, that's what I'm talking about, except mine are made from scrap packing material.

That is also exactly what I would like to use as stands, except I don't think I will be able to afford something that looks as nice as the example you have shown here. I'm more likely to go for a formstone garden pedestal. Still, if I can find something like you have shown, that would be great.

[stryd_one]

New toooyyyyyyyzzzzz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

[madox]

New toooyyyyyyyzzzzz!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

DAMN STRAIGHT! You summed it up nicely!

[stryd_one]

I have a "new toy" dance which is not dissimilar to my "it's working dance". I'm doin' it.

[nebula]

As long as your speakers aren't horrible, it shouldn't matter too much what kind you use, as long as you take the time to learn how to mix on them.  That is a lot of work, and a lot of trial&error.

Since I don't have as much time to spend on music as I would like, it literally took me a few years to really get a feel for mixing on the system I have had for the past 8 years:  a pair of Yamaha NS-10M Studios with a Yorkville SR300 amp and a Tannoy powered subwoofer.

My mixes have been getting better and better as I start to really understand how what I hear translates to other systems.  Right now I don't think I'd trade my pieced-together system for something worth 3 times as much, because I'd just have to re-learn it!

[Artesia]

try these, if you can find them in stock anymore (their parent companys having some trouble rn):

tapco s8, designed by mackie & actualy very good for the money.. a real 40hz-20khz in a supprisingy compact package & good for listening to music, let alone mixing it ;)

£270 ..sound comparable to far, far more expensive monitors :)

Acoustic Performance

Free Field Frequency Response: 40 Hz 20 kHz (±3 dB)

Lower Cutoff Frequency: -3 dB @ 40 Hz

Upper Cutoff Frequency: -3 dB @ 20 kHz

Sound Pressure Level @ 1 meter, 7.5 dBu into Balanced Input: 100 dB SPL @ 1m

Maximum SPL Per Pair: 113 dB SPL @ 1m

Amplifiers

Low Frequency Power: 60 watts, 4 ohm load, 100 watts peak

High Frequency Power: 60 watts, 4 ohm load, 100 watts peak

Slew Rate: > 15 V/µs

Distortion (THD, SMPTE IMD, DIM 100): < 0.035%

Electronic Crossover

Crossover Type: 24 dB/octave

Crossover Frequency: 3 kHz

Sensitivity: +4 dBu at 300 Hz for full output

Physical Dimensions and Weight

Enclosure: 0.625 in/16 mm thick MDF with 1.0 in/25 mm MDF front panel

Damping: Adiabatic fiberfill

Dimensions:

Height: 16.2 in/411 mm

Width: 11.6 in/295 mm

Depth: 13.8 in/351 mm

Weight: 35.2 lb/16.0 kg

unike mackies srm450 live sound cabs ..these things really do kick arse ;)

seriously, give these a go.. i was so impressed upon monitor shopping for someone else; i bought a pair myself

[madox]

As long as your speakers aren't horrible, it shouldn't matter too much what kind you use, as long as you take the time to learn how to mix on them.  That is a lot of work, and a lot of trial&error.

Yes, that is what I was thinking. So, I will be getting to know these speakers for a while to come. I probably will buy more expensive speakers at some time, but not for a while, and I will keep these speakers to reference as well.

By the way, how do you feel about working with your NS-10's? They have a rep as being excellent tools for monitoring, but pretty fatiguing, and not very pleasing on the ear. Do you think the rep is appropriate?

@stryd: Yeah, there was dancing done at my place last night too. Actually, pretty much any time I had to get out of my seat (and sometimes while still in my seat).