vintagestar Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 Hi, This is the second sammichSID I am building. I am not able to upload the SID application. I think there is some error whilte uploading, and I am not able to boot up the application when I switch on the power. This is the steps that I mess it up : 1./ Initial testing with MIOS studio, I got correct upload request message in Midi IN window, LCD is "ready" but I am not able to send comand to the LCD 2./ I thought I solder the wrong resistor but I didn't. I desolder R4A(82k) but end up destroy the soldering pad, I resolder them on the other side of PCB. 3./ I finally found it is a careless stupid mistake, I forgot to put the 6N138 on IC2 socket, that's why LCD messsage couldn't be sent before. 4./ Both midi in and out wasn't working, I think there is something short on R4A (may be), I don't have a circuit diagram so I don't know where it links to. 5./ After a bit of clean up, both midi in and out is working under MIOS Studio, I get the right message in MIDI In screen and able to sent text to LCD. 6./ After everything is fix, I've tried to upload the firmware "MIOS Hex File Upload", I think first 10% went ok and then all became error after that. 7./ I saw some code end up error on the screen (some is ok at the beinging), and my sammichSID screen try to reboot MIOS 8./ Mios Reboot text just stay on the Sammich LCD screen forever, obviously the data went corrupted. What should I do now? Buy a burner to burn a new PIC? Where R4A links to, I am very worry something goes wrong there which make the firmware upload unsucessfull. Regards, vintagestars Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 (edited) I don't have a circuit diagram so I don't know where it links to. Can i haz circuit diagram 4 dis? :wink: Edited March 5, 2010 by Smithy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 (edited) What should I do now? Buy a burner to burn a new PIC? No need, you only use a burner to install MIOS BOOTLOADER, not MIOS itself. Since the BOOTLOADER is pre-installed (or pre-burned) on your pic, all you need to do is to install MIOS again, click wait for upload request, and switch on the sammich just like you've done before. Edited March 5, 2010 by Smithy Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 4./ Both midi in and out wasn't working, I think there is something short on R4A (may be), I don't have a circuit diagram so I don't know where it links to. Step 1: RTFM! http://www.mb6582.org/sammichSID/sammichSID_Build_Guide_v0_96.zip Step 2: Search for "R4A" and all is explained. Btw theres an unfinished sentence in the same paragraph. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grizz Posted March 5, 2010 Report Share Posted March 5, 2010 It kind of sounds like your midi isn't working to me... 1. Have you shorted pins 25 and 26 on the PIC socket (without PIC installed), which creates a loop between the midi in and out? If you do this you should use the virtual keyboard in MIOS Studio and hit keys, turn knobs, etc. You should see the exact same messages on the midi in and the midi out monitors. If that works, you might want to try out another midi interface. I found out the hard and frustrating way that my US-122 (since donated to a school music program) will NOT properly upload ANYTHING to my SammichSID; not even the preset patches. And in fact it ended up being anything USB wouldn't work, which is probably a hardware conflict on my computers end (although it would upload firmware to my xoxbox, monomachine, etc.), but sticking with a firewire interface was much easier than fiddling with my annoying PC (thanks bill gates!). Hope that helps, and if I've given any bad info someone tell me to shut up! I thought it was time I tried to help someone out, since people have been sooooooooo helpful to me! ;-) Cheers, Alex PS: Thanks for the SID's! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintagestar Posted March 9, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 No need, you only use a burner to install MIOS BOOTLOADER, not MIOS itself. Since the BOOTLOADER is pre-installed (or pre-burned) on your pic, all you need to do is to install MIOS again, click wait for upload request, and switch on the sammich just like you've done before. I can not boot up the MIOS Bootloader. After my first attempt installing the MIOS setup, I think something corrupt and and the end the Sammich LCD screen just show "MIOS Reboot" but the screen freeze like that. I turn off the Sammich and turn it on again. Now there is no text on the Sammich LCD screen. Can I still re-install MIOS again under this condition? Seems like something went wrong on the bootloader and I can not boot up the Sammich now. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintagestar Posted March 9, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 It kind of sounds like your midi isn't working to me... 1. Have you shorted pins 25 and 26 on the PIC socket (without PIC installed), which creates a loop between the midi in and out? If you do this you should use the virtual keyboard in MIOS Studio and hit keys, turn knobs, etc. You should see the exact same messages on the midi in and the midi out monitors. If that works, you might want to try out another midi interface. I found out the hard and frustrating way that my US-122 (since donated to a school music program) will NOT properly upload ANYTHING to my sammichSID; not even the preset patches. And in fact it ended up being anything USB wouldn't work, which is probably a hardware conflict on my computers end (although it would upload firmware to my xoxbox, monomachine, etc.), but sticking with a firewire interface was much easier than fiddling with my annoying PC (thanks bill gates!). Hope that helps, and if I've given any bad info someone tell me to shut up! I thought it was time I tried to help someone out, since people have been sooooooooo helpful to me! ;-) Cheers, Alex PS: Thanks for the SID's! Hi Alex, I have installed the PIC but I get the same message on both midi in and out monitor. Is that normal? Regards, Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK. Posted March 9, 2010 Report Share Posted March 9, 2010 No, this isn't normal. What are the results of the (overworked) MIDI troubleshooting guide? -> http://www.ucapps.de/howto_debug_midi.html It would be especially interesting if the loopback is working on TEST MIDI2, and *not* working if the Rx/Tx loopback is removed. The results of the other tests would be interesting as well to get a full picture. Another hint: use MIOS Studio 2 - it works more reliable than the Java based version. Best Regards, Thorsten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintagestar Posted March 25, 2010 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Hi everyone, Today I got a new PIC, so I plug that into the socket and try again....ooooooooppppppsssss Same thing happen again. I think the PIC is dead now. Here is what I did today. 1./ I take out all the IC and check all the voltage is correct, and then I put the IC back and open Mios Studio. Configured midi In and Out 2./ I switch on the Sammich, I got a single upload request message in Windows IN, but I got that message in Windows OUT too...... that's weird. 3./ READY is on the LCD screen, I try to send some text message to the LCD, and it works, so I try to upload the sammich hex file and here the problem come : 4./ then....."MIOS Rebooting" on LCD screen freeze forever, after 30 mins waiting, I have no other option and turn it off 5./ Same as last time, the LCD screen goes black and I am not able to boot up the sammich again. Can someone please help. Regards, Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nILS Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Well. You didn't change anything so it's unlikely you fixed anything. Follow the directions that TK gave you and report back with the results. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philetaylor Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 Hi. When you turn on the core, do you get an upload request every second in the MIDI Monitor? If you have the same info in the MIDI IN and MIDI OUT monitors then that means you have a loop, either a software (wrongly patched in MIOS Studio maybe) or hardware (in and out connected together). Can you post a screenshot of the MIOS Studio Patch screen? Also check your connections. I doubt you have "killed" the PIC unless you did something REALLY stupid. I have applied power with the PIC inserted the wrong way round and various other things and never blown one up! What you have probably done is corrupt MIOS. MIOS can be downloaded from http://www.upcapps.de and you can use MIOS Studio to upload it. You may want to try MIOS Studio 2.0 as that has (IMHO) better MIDI handling and is less confusing to use :) The MIOS boot phase is: BOOTLOADER Starts and sends an upload request. It waits a second for a response and if it doesn't get one, it will boot MIOS. If MIOS can't be started then the BOOTLOADER will reboot the PIC. (The line of black on the display usually means that you are at this situation as this means the LCD has power but has not been initialized). If MIOS can be started then it will start. It initializes the display and then isplays the Copyright message and if an application exists it will start it. If no application exists, it will display READY Cheers Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilba Posted March 25, 2010 Report Share Posted March 25, 2010 This might not be relevant, but sometimes my MIDI interface is in loopback mode, where it echoes MIDI In to MIDI Out... if a MIDIbox is connected when this happens, the upload request gets sent back to the MIDIbox and it stays in "black bars" mode. At this point I'd have to point the finger at your PC/MIDI interface being the problem. Try MIOS Studio 2 and see if that makes a difference, it could just be the fairly common "bugs" of MIOS Studio 1 (crappy Java MIDI library). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintagestar Posted April 11, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2010 Hi everyone, Thanks for all your replies. I have build another Sammich and download the Mios Studio 2. Still not working. I am sure there is no problem with my soldering and all the resistors and caps are solder at the right place. The voltage test is also ok too. Midi In and Out cable connect properly. I really think there is something wrong with the PIC. Actually, I have successfully build the very first Sammich about two months ago, and I use MIOS studio 1 to upload the hex file, everything goes fine. My friend are using it everyday. I don't know what goes wrong, I use the same software and same computer to upload te hex file on the second kit. Lots of people tell me just to reinstall the MIOS is ok. However, the main problem I really like to state again is "I can not boot up the Sammich". Normally you will see "READY" on the Sammich LCD when you turn the power on because the PIC has pre-installed bootloader. However, when I turn it on now, There is nothing on the LCD just like there is no PIC installed. How can I re-install MIOS into Sammich when I can't see the "READY" text on the screen? Why I think the PIC data are corrupted? because I thought I soldering something wrong on the second Sammich so I try to desolder one of the resistor and I accidently destroy two of the soldering pad and the nightmare start from there. After the upload is not success, the Sammich try to REBOOT Automatically but that "REBOOT" text just stay one the Sammich LCD screen for an hour. (it happens on both PIC I got). I have no choice but switch the Sammich off whilte the REBBOT text is still on the LCD. The screen just goes blank when I try to switch it on again. I am sure some of you might think I must solder something wrong on the second kit which cause this problem. Well, actually I just build another Sammich again and this time I am 100% sure all the connection is correct. I am sure there is nothing goes wrong on the PCB or any components I solder on it. Can someone please help what I should do? I took some photo when I use Mios Studio. Regards, Steve Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintagestar Posted April 11, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2010 I know, MIOS Studio 2 show that it couldn't found MIOS core and ask me to check Midi In and Out. I am sure the midi cable connects correctly. Again, I am sure the PCB are fine, my soldering is almost perfect!!! My midi cable problems? Don't forget I use the same cable and successfully upload the hex file to my first sammichSID. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilba Posted April 11, 2010 Report Share Posted April 11, 2010 So does the second kit work perfectly? Or do you have two sammichSIDs which have the same uploading/booting problems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintagestar Posted April 11, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2010 I just try to put the 6N138 IC the other way around. Sometimes the software can detect the bootloader. How come? I thought I saw the notch of the IC is on the right side? However, not every tinme success. After MIOS sutdio 2 detect the bootloader, I was trying to upload the hex file. However, sometimes it has no response. Sometimes it was working, but the upload take about one hour to complete. After an hour time of uploading, it show the upload was complete. I press the query button, the software still only detect the bootloader only. It can't detect the application. Also Sammich did not reboot, the Sammich LCD screen is still blank. Anyone knows why? Regards, Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintagestar Posted April 11, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2010 Hi, Yes, I have two Sammich having the same uploading and booting problem. Regards, Sam So does the second kit work perfectly? Or do you have two sammichSIDs which have the same uploading/booting problems? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintagestar Posted April 11, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2010 Sometimes the software can detect the bootloader, sometimes it doesn't. Even detect is sucessfull, the upload might have no response. Even upload is in progress, uploading speed is about 1% per minute, which mean it takes more than an hour to upload that hex file. After upload are completed, sammich doesn;t restart, screen is still blank. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintagestar Posted April 11, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 11, 2010 Hi, Can you take a look if I put the 6N138 on the right direction? I put notch facing the right side before just like what the PCB show, but MIOS can't detect the bootloader at all. I put the IC notch facing the left side just like the photo shown here. Sometimes the MIOS can detect the bootloader but not stable, just like what I mention at the previous message. Regards, Sam Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilba Posted April 11, 2010 Report Share Posted April 11, 2010 The 6N138 should be inserted with the notch on the same end as the notch on the PCB. There is only ONE right way to insert ICs. The other way is wrong and more often than not will kill the IC, as most ICs have power supply pins at pin 1 and the diagonally opposite corner pin, so inserting them the wrong way inverts the power. This is bad. I can't tell if you've killed your 6N138 or not... it looks like putting it in the wrong way would not kill it from having swapped the polarity of power to something. It is starting to sound like there was nothing wrong with the PICs before you started to upload MIOS, and that your MIDI connections to the sammichSID is the problem, causing a corrupted upload to the PIC. This probably didn't (can't?) kill the bootloader on the PIC, but can corrupt the MIOS that was already installed, so that the only way to fix it is to upload MIOS in the first two seconds after powering on the sammichSID. So if you had some MIDI problem when first uploading MIOS, that's still a problem when trying to upload it again. I think detecting the bootloader is only done by receiving the bootloader's upload request message, and not by sending a message to the PIC and the PIC responding. So it's quite likely that you have a problem with the PIC receiving MIDI from the PC... PC starts uploading but PIC doesn't receive the messages correctly, sends back error messages or no acknowledgement messages etc. So the problem could be at the PC side (MIDI Interface, drivers, software) or on the sammichSID side (6N138 optocoupler faulty, bad soldering joints, missing JMI shunt, etc.) OK so... you now have two PICs with corrupted MIOS uploads. Until you can establish that MIDI is working and that uploading should work, then there's not much you can do. It could also be that MIOS Studio 2 isn't working well on your PC. You need to test that MIDI loopback through the optocoupler is working. That means taking out the PIC and shorting the Tx and Rx pins of the PIC IC socket, so all received MIDI on MIDI In socket gets echoed back to MIDI Out. Do that for both sammichSIDs with optocoupler installed correctly. But first, do what TK suggested before... FOLLOW THE TROUBLESHOOTING GUIDE FROM THE START however, I'm also interested in the result of TEST MIDI2 as this will show you if there is a problem with your MIDI setup or just the PIC. Also do the tests with MIOS Studio 1 (the Java one) and MIOS Studio 2, in case you see different results. Since you already got one sammichSID working with MIOS Studio 1, one would think that you should continue with MIOS Studio 1 for now, at least for the MIDI troubleshooting. No, this isn't normal. What are the results of the (overworked) MIDI troubleshooting guide? -> http://www.ucapps.de/howto_debug_midi.html It would be especially interesting if the loopback is working on TEST MIDI2, and *not* working if the Rx/Tx loopback is removed. The results of the other tests would be interesting as well to get a full picture. Another hint: use MIOS Studio 2 - it works more reliable than the Java based version. Best Regards, Thorsten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vintagestar Posted April 19, 2010 Author Report Share Posted April 19, 2010 Hi, I bought a new 6N138 chip. I also ask someone who has a PIC programmer to burn the hex file for me. However, I don't really understand what to do after reading this http://www.ucapps.de/mios_bootstrap_experts.html . Anyway, I downloaded MIOS V1.9g and Bootloader V1.2 from here http://www.ucapps.de/mios/mios_v1_9g.zip . There is two hex file. Which one do I have to burn into the PIC? Under pic18f4685 directory, sub directory burner has " bootloader_v1_2b_pic18f4685.hex " . Sub directory has " mios_v1_9g_pic18f4685.hex " . Which file do I have to burn into the PIC18F4685 chip? Regards, vintagestar Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
philetaylor Posted April 19, 2010 Report Share Posted April 19, 2010 Hi. You only need to burn "bootloader_v1_2b_pic18f4685.hex" using the PIC programmer. Once this is burned then you can upload "mios_v1_9g_pic18f4685.hex" and the SID application using MIOS Studio 2 over MIDI. Thanks Phil Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koshimazaki Posted October 8, 2010 Report Share Posted October 8, 2010 Vintagestar have you solve this problem? I have very similar issue with my Sammich. Only difference is it copies the files normally pretty fast, in one minute or less. When I upload the setup_sammich_sid.hex file it seem to corrupt the mios and lcd keeps showing Rebooting MIOS. Once I reboot I get row of squares and 'Bootloader is up and running' massage in MIOS Studio. After that when I copy MIOS(MIOS 1.9g.hex) to PIC all seems fine - I get 'Application is up and running' in MiOS studio and 'Ready' massage on the LCD. I used MIOS 2.1 and two different midi interfaces. Re-soldered few joints, it all looks fine on the board... Tried it few times. Can anyone help me to get out off this loop? Cheers! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nILS Posted October 9, 2010 Report Share Posted October 9, 2010 Koshi: I'd guess you have a problem with the CAN bus parts. (Diode + Resistor), cause they typically cause random rebooting etc. when missing/wrong. This would also explain, why it only happens with the mbSID firmware. Make sure you have R16 and D3 (orientation!) mounted (correctly). They're right above the PIC. Also make sure there's no jumper or the likes on the CAN header. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
koshimazaki Posted October 9, 2010 Report Share Posted October 9, 2010 Koshi: I'd guess you have a problem with the CAN bus parts. (Diode + Resistor), cause they typically cause random rebooting etc. when missing/wrong. This would also explain, why it only happens with the mbSID firmware. Make sure you have R16 and D3 (orientation!) mounted (correctly). They're right above the PIC. Also make sure there's no jumper or the likes on the CAN header. Thanks nILS It seem fine to me, I attach the photos. I wonder if C8 might be wrongly soldered (didn't quite fit the board), its the same value as the kit capacitors though (100nF) and I have the same one on control surface that works (C2). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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