m00dawg Posted March 24, 2011 Report Share Posted March 24, 2011 (edited) So I've redesigned my front panel probably 5 times now. I finally have space figured out for the LCD panel, and even had some extra space to work with. Trouble is things don't look quite right. The section below the LCD panel looks either jumbled or bare, depending on how I orient things, and I would love a second opinion on if the knobs on the right section may be too close. I was hoping someone might have some thoughts? Maybe a fresh pair of eyes on it will help. The things I don't want to change are the right-hand section, which means I can't really change the width around the LCD, say to make room for the menu knob. The top and bottom-most screws also can't move much as these are as far out as I can go and still fit boards in the chassis. Finally, I'm limited to 100 x 160 mm for the max board size in Eagle (which is why the filter and LFO sections are on their own). Things would be much easier if I didn't have those limitations but I gots what I gots :) For those that saw my looks like I'm going with a 4x20 as it ended up fitting better than the 2x20 (Wilba was dead on there) and I two that may work well (a yellow or green background or a yellow on black background). By the way, props again to Wilba - making control surfaces can be tedious and error prone (but very very rewarding). EDIT: Dum dee dum...would help to include the actual panel in the post, eh? :) Edited March 25, 2011 by m00dawg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted March 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Here's what I came up with. Not perfect, but better! So far, everything seems like it fits but I'm still comparing my board designs to the panel, paying more careful attention to the LCD panel since that is what set everything in motion with having to redesign it in the first place. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Panther Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Just a quick suggestion for the controls under the display, maybe you like it, maybe not :) Also, I would centre-align the (I think they are ventilation) holes under the matrix to the block they are in. And the blue lines, are they just for reference? If not, have you thought about removing them? In my opinion the panel looks much nicer without the lines. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted March 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 (edited) Ah hey that's a cool idea! I was trying to figure out how to move the knob up without making it look vertically weird due to the other knobs and stuff and I hadn't thought of doing it the way you did. You caught my unaligned vents. I do plan on fixing them just didn't get around to it yet. ;) As far as the lines, I have tried it both with and without. I kinda like them myself. I don't like that they run off the edges - I thought about putting a border around everything and maybe switch from a blue to a grey. On my MB-6582 panel, the blue lines looked really cool so I kinda ended up being fond of them. Not having lines is probably cheaper, though. I'm hoping to finish measurements a bit quicker this time since I am going to lay all the boards out first, check to clearance on the chassis and then do the wiring. The only ones I'm worried about would be the LFO, Filter, and LCD sections. The other ones are pretty easy (I was even able to do the ENV board using a single layer). Anyways thanks a bunch for the feedback! Edited March 25, 2011 by m00dawg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Panther Posted March 25, 2011 Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 I wouldn't do the grey lines personally, as that would give a strange contrast between the (highly contrasting) white on black everywhere else. Maybe make them the same blue as in the logo (or change the logo blue to the same one as you use for the lines) or maybe white? That way the lines might 'fit' a bit better, because the color comes back somewhere else on the panel. A border around all blocks might look nice.. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted March 25, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 25, 2011 Oooh yeah good call there. One thing about the grey is that it might look sort of like my blue MB-6582 panel. I used the light blue for the lines and dark blue for the panel itself. Odd thing is in certain like, it looks reversed which was a cool look! The one thing I didn't like about the blue was that it didn't really fit with the colors of the logo. I tried to get the colors close to that of the C64 logo. I'll try the other blue and see how that may look as well as try the border around the whole thing see how that looks. I can actually have that serve a function and put the border where the actual chassis border is (hopefully that will help me pay attention to those from now on :) ) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted March 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Here's another update! This one is quite a bit different since again messed up the LCD area (ARGH!). It ended up being a good thing because I realized I could use fewer boards without running into the limitations of the non-profit version of Eagle. Turns out 100x160mm is for actual parts. The board itself as well as the mounting holes (and even wires) can surpass this which meant that I had just enough room to make boards as large as the height I needed. I also diddled with the center section a bit and so far I like the layout much better. I currently have screws just on the corners but I tried adding a few more screws along the centerlines. I think I may opt to use JB-Weld there because I really like having those lines on the board from previous designs. Plus, the screws in the center of the Envilator board clobber the knob text. I just didn't want to use JB-Weld as the sole means of keeping the board mounted (didn't want stuff falling onto the synth boards if I ended up sucking at using it. I'd rather just keep the screws on the corners but thought the boards might flex and make the control surface spongy. Anyone have any thoughts there? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Panther Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 Nice one! The display and knobs below it look nice this way :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted March 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 (edited) Yep agreed! Trying to figure out if the LEDs above the CC, ... and SID sections are too far/close? Dunno. So far all the boards fit the measurements but I haven't started routing wires yet. I realized that having the components positioned perfectly for all the boards first is a very very good idea :) Still mulling over adding the extra screws as well. The MB6582 CS board seems like it has some flex to it, even with just small bit of pressure, when holding it from the sides. So I think the extra screws may be needed. I really didn't want to mess with JB-Weld though. Humm... Edited March 28, 2011 by m00dawg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Panther Posted March 28, 2011 Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 The spacing between CC / SID etc button and LED's look good to me. Can't you fix the middle of the PCB's from the back? Or maybe put an aluminum bar between the outer screws (on the backside of the frontpanel), with a countersunk screw or tap-hole in the middle to fixate the PCB (will require other spacers and will be difficult to make, but it was just something that popped in my head). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted March 28, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 28, 2011 I had to end up increasing the spacing slightly as it was running into the button pads. I also moved the LCD hole up a bit and am toying with moving the knobs down and making them equidistant to the LEDs and buttons. Since I am planning on using flat-head screws, I don't think the buttons being close to the screw-holes will be much of an issue, but moving the knobs down does move the text under them down beyond the mid-point which means I won't be able to put a line there. Will post an update once I finish all the measuring and hopefully decide on the final positions of the knobs. I'm pretty close to having everything properly measured so once I do that, the panel hopefully won't need much modification. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted March 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 (edited) Here it is! All my CS boards have been measured and appear to line up as well, so I don't expect to change things too much unless I run into a routing issue (and, man, as hard as the LCD area was for me, I'd rather just have a 4 layer board printed than have to go back to that :P). This one only shows the screw-holes in the corners. While I like Flying Panther's idea of adding supports, I decided the JB-Weld probably wouldn't be as bad since if it fails, it just means the board will flex a bit more. It also allows me to put mounts in odd places without much of an issue (as long as I can route around it). I would have gone without except I cannot figure out how to avoid cutting off the text under some of the knobs. The other issue is the engraved lines I used in previous iterations. The filter mode text would get cut through. As a result, I may play around with different styles (such as moving the text below the LEDs, though I may have to get rid of some of the line-art to do that). It's coming along, though and now that I have everything measured, hopefully any changes are just going to be cosmetic (colors, line art, etc.). EDIT: I forgot to mention, the screws around the LCD are for reference as these are (sort of) where the LCD would screw into the control surface board. I'm leaving them there for now just in case, but they won't be in the final design.MB-SIDR8TR.zip Edited March 29, 2011 by m00dawg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flying Panther Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 While I like Flying Panther's idea of adding supports, I decided the JB-Weld probably wouldn't be as bad since if it fails, it just means the board will flex a bit more. It also allows me to put mounts in odd places without much of an issue (as long as I can route around it). I would have gone without except I cannot figure out how to avoid cutting off the text under some of the knobs. JB-Weld is probably the best option here. When I re-read my suggestion for the supports it really sounds like a lot of work (and probably take some experimenting before it actually fits the way you want to). For the lettering/lining, maybe put the encoder's primary description above the knob, and the two secondary below it to save some space for the lining? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted March 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 JB-Weld is probably the best option here. When I re-read my suggestion for the supports it really sounds like a lot of work (and probably take some experimenting before it actually fits the way you want to). For the lettering/lining, maybe put the encoder's primary description above the knob, and the two secondary below it to save some space for the lining? Actually, I liked the idea of the supports quite a bit, but I didn't know of a good way to apply it. I know what you're talking about, though, because I have seen solutions like that before. The JB-Weld should be easy enough, and I was going to use it for the board stand-offs in the chassis as well anyway. For the lettering, I thought about putting the text above, but the screws would actually go through the 2nd row of text (at least on the bottom row of knobs) so I need to find a way to move two rows around. I thought about doing some crazy things but never found something I liked. I may add the center screws on the sides of the panels back in since they don't get in the way and help split up the sections naturally without using lines. I did find out that I can have my line-art if I move the text from being above the buttons and LEDs to below, but I haven't found a look I like and it may put some of the text close too the knobs. Something to try, but at least I (hopefully) won't have to move many things around at this point. Maybe I missed it but I wish FrontPanel Express and Eagle had measuring tools. If I knew the distance, say, between the screws and various components, it would have been wildly easier. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 29, 2011 Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 I know I'm a little late to the party, but I thought I'd chime in... With the MB-6582 I sometimes wish the cursor controls could be in a diamond pattern, or PC-style upside-down "T" arrangement. I find that I need to look at the buttons every time I use them. You may wish to consider that. You could probably find room to do it if you eliminated the word "NAV" and the line that groups those controls together. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted March 29, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 29, 2011 Hah that's a VERY good idea! I dunno how much room I'll have but yeah, I'll give that a go. Dunno why that didn't cross my mind. Flying Panther's design was getting close to that idea. I didn't end up using that just for keeping continuity with the other sections and I kept crossing into the LCD bezel for the parts, doh. Now that I have that figured out perhaps I can be more adventurous. I'll give that a go perhaps tonight or tomorrow. Thanks for the cool idea! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted March 30, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 Took a bit of work but here's a rough draft orienting the navigation arrows around the menu knob. I haven't checked to make sure all the components fit well but I think I have at least cleared the encoder base (it's rather large) so I think it should be good. It feels a bit cluttered mostly because the SID L/R makes the bottom row unbalanced, but I'm not sure if that can be fixed easily. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altitude Posted March 30, 2011 Report Share Posted March 30, 2011 (edited) Since this thing is a rack front panel, it will be plenty thick for threaded blind holes on the back. No hardware will show on the front other than the chassis mounting stuff for a clean nice clean look. You're already going to drop a nice chunk of change on this so might as well spend the extra $$ and make it perfect. You could also have them cut a recess for the LCD to sit closer to the front. *edit* I just looked at your file and you have the thickness set at 2mm, it really should be thicker than that since the panel will flex quite a bit at that thickness Edited March 30, 2011 by Altitude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted March 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Yeah it's 2mm mostly because it's the default. Do you think it would flex that much in a rack though? Either way, cutting the recess for the LCD is a pretty clever idea! If I ended up getting anything thicker than 2mm, I can just offset the recess to make sure I don't run out of room. Not sure what to put for specs for a blind hole though. I assume I would also have to be pretty accurate on measuring the necessary screw depth for that? I could go with an un-threaded hole though and use that cavity to better fill in with JB-Weld though? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nebula Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 I don't think I would choose to put the cursor controls around the knob like that. In many cases the up/down actually functions as inc/dec (in which case they're a bit far apart to comfortably nudge values up and down), and I would normally like to put my fingers over the left and right buttons simultaneously to quickly cursor back and forth. I think you will find the knob gets in the way. (The usual disclaimer applies - this is YOUR panel, my suggestion is my opinion alone) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altitude Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) Yeah it's 2mm mostly because it's the default. Do you think it would flex that much in a rack though? Either way, cutting the recess for the LCD is a pretty clever idea! If I ended up getting anything thicker than 2mm, I can just offset the recess to make sure I don't run out of room. Not sure what to put for specs for a blind hole though. I assume I would also have to be pretty accurate on measuring the necessary screw depth for that? I could go with an un-threaded hole though and use that cavity to better fill in with JB-Weld though? I would go with 3mm. All my rack mount enclosures always have a 1/8" thick front panel. As far as the blind holes go, go down 2.25mm deep, that is plenty for a standoff. What I prefer doing is instead of using a stand off with a male thread on one end, I use one with two female holes and then just use a set screw in the hole in the panel, that way you engage more threads since you dont need a thread relief on the stand off. I use this method on 2.5mm thick panels and it is solid as a rock. I have also had much better success with the Loctite version of JB weld (Just called Loctite Weld). After battling with JB weld with my MB6582, I dont use it for stand offs at all. A mechanical fastener will always be much better and secure Edited March 31, 2011 by Altitude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted March 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 @nebula Hmm good point there. I haven't found much need for the directional buttons honestly on the Sammich. My MB-6582 was only working well for a very short period of time :) So I never got to mess with it much. I do like the look of the arrows around the button better, but you do have a point. I will try doing some tests with my knob caps to see how things go since I was worried that they might be too close (just didn't have time to test it yet). The nice thing is the panel is basically complete so moving things around is really just for experimentation - I have a panel now that I will likely be able to go with (assuming I can route the wires on my CS boards for the front panel's configuration). @Altitude Can you elaborate a bit on the set screw idea? Do you just lightly tap those in or? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altitude Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 (edited) .. @Altitude Can you elaborate a bit on the set screw idea? Do you just lightly tap those in or? No, just have FPE do them for you. Click on the hole, chose a thread (UNC 4-40), then click "blind hole", choose the depth, and "place on reverse side" Then just use one of these into the panel: with one of these: Edited March 31, 2011 by Altitude Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted March 31, 2011 Author Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Oh haha duh, I was looking at the wrong thing when I searched for "set screw" initially. So it's basically just threads with no head. I guess one just screws them in snug and then just screws in the female header onto it? Pretty clever solution! In my case, that works out well because I was going to use female/male standoffs (so I can a fix the CS boards using a nut on the bottom). Are set screws something I can do for the entire panel then or should I keep the standard corner screws? I sort of like the corner screws actually, but I might like to hide them if I can make room for the engraved lines that break up the different sections (like I had in my previous designs). Thank you very much for the help! Learned quite a bit from this thread, so thanks everyone! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Altitude Posted March 31, 2011 Report Share Posted March 31, 2011 Keep the corner screws for the case, there is no real way to tighten those down with sides on, no? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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