Midibox and 9090 Drum Individual Accent... is there a Way to realise this

[jamie]

Hy,

like so many others, i want to build a "MB9090", too. I already finished the 9090 Modules (Trevor rules)

and i also finished the Midibox 808 (yeah TK rules too)sequencer.

This two parts work fine since i connected the trigger and velocity of each sound

to the Dout pins of the mb808.

But i'm missing some individual dynamic variations. (not the whole velocity range, but two values e.g.

accented - non accented for each sound)

Is there a midibox with i can realise this (maybe seq4). If yes, what parts do i need for and how do i have to connect the soundboard

with the sequencer. So if it would work with the seq4 is it possible to configure it like a mb 808 (buttons, instr. encoder, bpm, tempo encoder etc)

because i like this MB808-stylish sequencer

thank

jamie

[TK.]

Hi,

I'm currently working together with kogz23 on a new MB808 baseboard + frontpanel PCB (combined) which will provide individual velocity levels for the TR9090 project.

The velocity levels will be controlled by additional DOUT shift registers + a resistor network (similar to the original TR909 design).

Since the number of DOUTs is limited to 16 maximum, only 11 velocity outputs will be available, but I think that this is acceptable for most cases (e.g. Open/Closed HH can be shared)

Once I got my hands on the PCB, I will update the MB808 firmware accordingly.

Is there a midibox with i can realise this (maybe seq4). If yes, what parts do i need for and how do i have to connect the soundboard

with the sequencer. So if it would work with the seq4 is it possible to configure it like a mb 808 (buttons, instr. encoder, bpm, tempo encoder etc)

because i like this MB808-stylish sequencer

The MBSEQV4 firmware can handle individual velocities, but only via an AOUT module (expensive! And only 8 channels are available).

The DOUT solution is inexpensive, and it's done like in the original TR909 design.

Adapting the MBSEQV4 for the MB808 user interface is too much work, therefore I will only enhance the existing PIC based MB808 firmware.

I guess that you will like this enhancement? Because you won't need to build a new MIDIbox, just add some 74HC595 :)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[jamie]

Hi,

I'm currently working together with kogz23 on a new MB808 baseboard + frontpanel PCB (combined) which will provide individual velocity levels for the TR9090 project.

The velocity levels will be controlled by additional DOUT shift registers + a resistor network (similar to the original TR909 design).

Since the number of DOUTs is limited to 16 maximum, only 10 velocity outputs will be available, but I think that this is acceptable for most cases (e.g. Open/Closed HH can be shared)

Once I got my hands on the PCB, I will update the MB808 firmware accordingly.

The MBSEQV4 firmware can handle individual velocities, but only via an AOUT module (expensive! And only 8 channels are available).

The DOUT solution is inexpensive, and it's done like in the original TR909 design.

Adapting the MBSEQV4 for the MB808 user interface is too much work, therefore I will only enhance the existing PIC based MB808 firmware.

I guess that you will like this enhancement? Because you won't need to build a new MIDIbox, just add some 74HC595 :)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

Whoohaaah!!!

this sounds very, very, very great. So i'll wait for the new update. In the meantime i'll think about the design of the case, knobs etc. (oh, there's still enough work)

Im so excited finishing this projekt and i'm lookin forward jammin with my own MB9090 :frantics:

Thank you very much

[nebula]

The velocity levels will be controlled by additional DOUT shift registers + a resistor network (similar to the original TR909 design).

Since the number of DOUTs is limited to 16 maximum, only 10 velocity outputs will be available, but I think that this is acceptable for most cases (e.g. Open/Closed HH can be shared)

Thorsten, this sounds excellent. I have a couple of comments / suggestions, sincerely intended as constructive input ...

(1) Do you really need all 8 pins of a DOUT for drum machine dynamics? The TR-909 sequencer only offers two dynamic levels per step (not for all sounds though). Even if you use 4 pins, that could still allow 16 levels per sound and you could use a single DOUT IC for two voices' dynamics.

(2) How do you plan to add such a great deal of velocity control to the MIDIbox 808 UI? The TR-909's two dynamic levels are cycled through as you press each step ("GP") button.

(3) I haven't looked in great detail at the 9090 schematic, but I believe it somehow uses the only a single resistor array to achieve full dynamics for all drum voices.

(4) Finally, I wonder if MIDIbox 808 is still a good name for this project, for a couple of reasons. The MB-808 is a TR-808 clone, of sorts, and a MIDIbox-based drum sequencer powers it. The sequencer is similar to the TR-606, and soon also the TR-909/TR-707, but it expands on those sequencers with numerous really cool, modern features. The name "MIDIbox 808" leads newbies to believe that the ucapps project is an 808 clone, when in fact it is much less (no sounds) and also much more (more comprehensive sequencer). Maybe something like "MIDIbox0x" or "MIDIbox beatbox" or "MIDIbox drumSEQ" describes what you're doing without suggesting that it strictly clones the 808, and also distances this multipurpose sequencer from the MB-808 project.

[strophlex]

Really nice news!

[TK.]

(1) Do you really need all 8 pins of a DOUT for drum machine dynamics?

I'm planning to use 6 pins for the resistor network like the original TR909 design. The two remaining pins can be used for the gates.

Even if you use 4 pins, that could still allow 16 levels per sound and you could use a single DOUT IC for two voices' dynamics.

Yes, using 4 pins instead of 6 could be an option if somebody wants 16 velocity outputs instead of 10

(2) How do you plan to add such a great deal of velocity control to the MIDIbox 808 UI? The TR-909's two dynamic levels are cycled through as you press each step ("GP") button.

I'm not planning to overwork the MB808 application, e.g. because of effort reasons (meanwhile programming PIC assembly is a pain in the *ss for me ;))

And I don't want to change the existing pattern structure (individual accents for each step would increase the pattern size dramatically, much less patterns could be stored than before)

Therefore we will still have only a single track which enables/disables accent for all other tracks.

Only difference is, that the velocity level for accented and not accented notes can be configured for each instrument.

The accent levels can be controlled individually if drums are played via MIDI.

(3) I haven't looked in great detail at the 9090 schematic, but I believe it somehow uses the only a single resistor array to achieve full dynamics for all drum voices.

The 9090 uses some S&H stages to multiplex the velocity levels.

This has two disadvantages: the S&H stages have to be refreshed each mS by the firmware, this increases the CPU load.

Another disadvantage: it isn't possible to set the trigger at exactly the same moment with a new velocity level - velocity would have to be set earlier, this adds an unwanted delay to the trigger.

Since the original design doesn't use S&H stages as well, I prefer to go this way.

(4) Finally, I wonder if MIDIbox 808 is still a good name for this project, for a couple of reasons. The MB-808 is a TR-808 clone, of sorts, and a MIDIbox-based drum sequencer powers it. The sequencer is similar to the TR-606, and soon also the TR-909/TR-707, but it expands on those sequencers with numerous really cool, modern features. The name "MIDIbox 808" leads newbies to believe that the ucapps project is an 808 clone, when in fact it is much less (no sounds) and also much more (more comprehensive sequencer). Maybe something like "MIDIbox0x" or "MIDIbox beatbox" or "MIDIbox drumSEQ" describes what you're doing without suggesting that it strictly clones the 808, and also distances this multipurpose sequencer from the MB-808 project.

I see the point...

But currently I'm only planning to add a small extension to an existing project with as less effort as possible, renaming the project could give you the wrong sign that this is a new project which is open for adding much more extensions. Thats definitely not the case. ;)

However, how about MIDIbox SEQ V3D

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[lanu64x]

seq V3D and my 9090 Boards perfect

[pcbatterij]

Hey,

I have almost finished building a SeqV4 in TR909 style.

it is working great, but I am still reprogramming the sequencer code and mainly the user interface part to have a great 909 feel.

see the pic of my prototype on:

cheers Jef

[jamie]

Hi,

I'm currently working together with kogz23 on a new MB808 baseboard + frontpanel PCB (combined) which will provide individual velocity levels for the TR9090 project.

The velocity levels will be controlled by additional DOUT shift registers + a resistor network (similar to the original TR909 design).

Since the number of DOUTs is limited to 16 maximum, only 10 velocity outputs will be available, but I think that this is acceptable for most cases (e.g. Open/Closed HH can be shared)

Hi,

I almost finished creating the pcb for the MB808 sequencer. As i intend to create a all in one board i need some dokumentation of

the part of the upcomming velocity controller.

Are there already some schematics or sketches about the resitor network and the connection between the shift registers and the resistor network. (maybe even the connection to the 9090 boards)

It would be great if I could finish the pcb in meantime, as all further hardware constructions depend on this pcb (size of the pcb -->size of the case ->frontpage, etc.)

So if the new release comes out, i just have to do some adjustments of the defines.

Best regards

jamie

[pcbatterij]

Hey Jamie,

Could you let me know what the reasons are why you are not just connecting the MB808 sequencer with the 9090 boards using MIDI?

will this save a lot of money on a component level?

cheers,

Jef

[lanu64x]

it makes me crazy

v4 or v3, which I take??????

both :-)

really awesome you are the best

Edited February 24, 2012 by lanu64x

[jamie]

Hey Jamie,

Could you let me know what the reasons are why you are not just connecting the MB808 sequencer with the 9090 boards using MIDI?

will this save a lot of money on a component level?

cheers,

Jef

Hi Jef,

yeah that's right, the easiest and cheapest way is to connnect this two parts using midi.

But i want to build a 909 like standalone drumsequencer. so I can use in two ways:

- In studio with the daw and other equipment.(there are sometimes some pretty good results if you trigger some other instrument with patterns of the mb808)

- for some live jammin acts on stage as dj.(without using a midicable as bridge between the midiout jack of the sequencer and

the midi-in jack of the soundboard.

And.. what can I say, but I think doing projects like this is not about saving money. It's about the feeling if you finished it an it works like you always dreamed about it.

It's the harder way and I'm tellin you I really need a lot of help, but if it works .....---> "Kühbacher Weißbier"

I took a look on the pics of your work. Pretty pretty nice :)!! i think you got lot of skills, so tell me why are you connecting this two board via midi an not using the trigger outs

Best regards

jamie

[pcbatterij]

Jamie,

I am using the V4 of the MB Seq. That means that I already have two MIDI OUT and two MIDI IN.

The MIDI ports are already there and working perfectly. Same thing for the 9090, everything is already there. As I see it, I could only bypass the PIC on the 9090 boards. But that would mean a lot of programming to do on the MB Seq end of the connection.

for the wiring: To me it's the same if you use a MIDI cable or some sort of other cable to connect the 9090 with the sequencer.

I have made a little video of the sequencer hooked up with the 9090. the quality is bad, but you'll have at least a feeling of how my sequencer will be.

cheers

Jef

[jamie]

Hi,

I'm currently working together with kogz23 on a new MB808 baseboard + frontpanel PCB (combined) which will provide individual velocity levels for the TR9090 project.

The velocity levels will be controlled by additional DOUT shift registers + a resistor network (similar to the original TR909 design).

Since the number of DOUTs is limited to 16 maximum, only 10 velocity outputs will be available, but I think that this is acceptable for most cases (e.g. Open/Closed HH can be shared)

Once I got my hands on the PCB, I will update the MB808 firmware accordingly.

Best Regards, Thorsten.

Hi Thorsten,

are there some further progress in creating the update of the firmware ore the pcb. I'm stuck in assembling my "mb909", because the firmware and the schematic about the individual velocities (e.g. restistor network <--> shift registers) are the last pieces of puzzle i need

Best regards

jamie

[TK.]

Hi,

yes, there is some progress!

I got the prototype PCB, it's almost completely stuffed.

I need another day to solder the LEDs + resistors for velocity control, and some time to enhance the firmware.

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[rvlt]

Hi,

yes, there is some progress!

I got the prototype PCB, it's almost completely stuffed.

I need another day to solder the LEDs + resistors for velocity control, and some time to enhance the firmware.

Best Regards, Thorsten.

Wow!

Just to get this right: This board shown above together with a Pic-Core will give me a standalone drum sequencer, right? Or is the Pic-Core circuit already integrated on the backside?

Best regards,

Lars

[TK.]

Yes, the PIC is mounted at the backside of the PCB - thanks to the layout work of kogz23! :thumbsup:

It includes everything that you need to get a MIDI + CV drum sequencer running!

Current state: sequencer is working, but I've to reorganize some parts of the firmware to allow control over velocity from the "accent track #16" (known from the 808 handling).

The firmware wasn't prepared to handle accent *before* MIDI (and CV) events are generated... I hope that I will find an elegant solution.

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[rvlt]

This sounds brilliant!!

If it's not too much hassle: could you tell us the dimensions (approx.) of the PCB?

Thanks,

Lars

[TK.]

406 x 81 mm

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[TK.]

The "CV via DOUT" option is implemented, and I tested it on a single DOUT -> works!

Now the remaining resistor networks have to be soldered on the PCB + some testing has to be done.

Schematic:

;;

;; CV values can also be output via DOUT shift registers

;; This option is sufficient to control the "velocity" of drum instruments, and it's cheap as well!

;; We expect following connections:

;; 

;;   DOUT      ca. 160k

;;    D7 ---o---/\/\/\---*

;;              ca. 80k  |

;;    D6 ---o---/\/\/\---*

;;              ca. 40k  |

;;    D5 ---o---/\/\/\---*

;;              ca. 20k  |

;;    D4 ---o---/\/\/\---*

;;              ca. 10k  |

;;    D3 ---o---/\/\/\---*

;;              ca. 5k   |

;;    D2 ---o---/\/\/\---*----o CV Out

;;              220 Ohm

;;    D1 ---o---/\/\/\--------o free assignable trigger

;;              220 Ohm

;;    D0 ---o---/\/\/\--------o another free assignable trigger

;; 

;; The DOUTx channels are matching with the AOUT channels as specified in the DEFAULT_TRKINFO table above.

;; Allowed values: 1-16 (selects DOUT shift register) or 0 to disable

;; Ensure that DEFAULT_NUMBER_SR is high enough so that all DOUTs are updated.

#define DEFAULT_CV_DOUT_SR1  4

#define DEFAULT_CV_DOUT_SR2  5

#define DEFAULT_CV_DOUT_SR3  6

#define DEFAULT_CV_DOUT_SR4  7

#define DEFAULT_CV_DOUT_SR5  8

#define DEFAULT_CV_DOUT_SR6  9

#define DEFAULT_CV_DOUT_SR7  10

#define DEFAULT_CV_DOUT_SR8  11

#define DEFAULT_CV_DOUT_SR9  12

#define DEFAULT_CV_DOUT_SR10 13

#define DEFAULT_CV_DOUT_SR11 14

#define DEFAULT_CV_DOUT_SR12 15

#define DEFAULT_CV_DOUT_SR13 16

#define DEFAULT_CV_DOUT_SR14 0

#define DEFAULT_CV_DOUT_SR15 0

#define DEFAULT_CV_DOUT_SR16 0

[/code]


Note: more than 16 DOUTs are not (and will never be) supported.

3 DOUTs are used for the 16 GP LEDs + 8 status LEDs.

Means: only 13 are really free for velocity outputs... and the PCB has 11 of them!

On the other hand, instruments like Open/Closed HH can simply share the same velocity, as they are (normally) not played concurrently.


Best Regards, Thorsten.

[nebula]

Hi TK, your board looks amazing - again! I like "integrated core" designs, and I think this is the first time I've seen you do it.

I was trying to ask is how you program the dynamics in the sequencer, and what is the visual indication? (In my last post in this thread I thought up the question faster than I could type it)

On the TR-909, if a step is "off" and then you press the GP button once, you've turned on that step with quiet dynamics. The corresponding LED lights up, but it's dim. Press the GP button again, and you've bumped the step up to loud dynamics, and the LED gets brighter. Press it a third time and you've muted the step again (and the LED goes out).

The two nice things about that method: (1) it's very fast to program a beat with lots of dynamics, and (2) you can tell at a glance which steps are loud and which ones are soft.

Are you planning anything similar for the user interface? Is it possible to dim the LEDs by pulsing them?

[TK.]

I was trying to ask is how you program the dynamics in the sequencer, and what is the visual indication? (In my last post in this thread I thought up the question faster than I could type it)

On the TR-909, if a step is "off" and then you press the GP button once, you've turned on that step with quiet dynamics. The corresponding LED lights up, but it's dim. Press the GP button again, and you've bumped the step up to loud dynamics, and the LED gets brighter. Press it a third time and you've muted the step again (and the LED goes out).

The two nice things about that method: (1) it's very fast to program a beat with lots of dynamics, and (2) you can tell at a glance which steps are loud and which ones are soft.

Are you planning anything similar for the user interface? Is it possible to dim the LEDs by pulsing them?

Yes, I can implement it this way for tracks where the Aux layer is configured for Accent.

The Aux layer can also be assigned to flam/skip/etc... in this case separate entry will be possible (as known from MB808), and accent can only be controlled via the global accent track #16 (as known from MB808 as well)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[wicked1]

TK, are you still working on the drum sequencer PCB? Or I guess more specifically, the software modifications you were talking about in this thread (individual accent)?

Thanks!

[TK.]

Al works on the final PCB version, which will get some additional improvements such as an on-board VR and more trigger outputs.

We consider to order another prototype before starting a bulk order.

the software modifications you were talking about in this thread (individual accent)?

Yes: implemented, tested and working! :)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[wicked1]

Thanks! I'm building a seq4, so will have all my seq3 parts available.. I think I'll convert it to a drum sequencer :D.

Where can I download the new firmware? Or is it what's on uCAPPS? (It says it hasn't been updated since last year) Or, is it not available yet?