My MIDIbox SID project (help needed: clocking the SID synchronous to the PIC)

[Nestle]

I will start posting information about my MIDIbox SID project to this thread. There is lots of "my MIDIbox" threads already, but im sure it helps people to understand my questions. When I have problems, anyone can see what have I done already to give proper tips. Also there is as many problems as there is builders, so maybe I find some new troubles that latter SID candidates need help with, thus making their work a tid easier...

I will add the latest question to the thread subject, so its easier to figure out if there is something new going on...

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Does it hold any advantages to use 2 of the both SID models in my 4 SID box, or is it wiser to try to find 4 identical ones? I have 2 of both at the moment, so it would be a bit cheaper to not to buy more c64s just for SID-chips...

Itching to begin this project ;)

Nestle

[Nestle]

Hi again,

Someplace had nfo that said that only problem is that I need separate presets for both SIDchip types. Do I load one for every  SID normally, or are they in one package that changes the preset to every SID onboard at the same time?

Sounds difficult to keep separate preset information in my feeble short term memory...

Where can I find information about which of the chips is the better one? Or just something about the differences... My only known fact is that in my new version of C64, digitalized sounds and some weirder soundcode didnt seem to  work in games... That used to get me rather mad and stick with the original and much nicer model of C64... In MIDIbox I cant see this being a problem...

Nestle

[raphael]

Someplace had nfo that said that only problem is that I need separate presets for both SIDchip types.

As far as I know there are no different patches (I use only 8580). But there are different firmware versions (mostly due to different filter characteristics of the two SIDs).

Some people have already build such "mixed" setups. The only real difference from the hardware side is that the 6581 needes 12V regulator and the 8580 needs 9V. Keep that im mind before you`re frying your 8580 with a too high voltage.

Also the filter caps are different for the two SIDs.

Where can I find information about which of the chips is the better one? Or just something about the differences...

Search the forum for "6581 8580".

First 3 results:

http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php?topic=3284.0

http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php?topic=2381.0

http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php?topic=2774.0

I prefer the 8580 - less noise, better filter.

Raphael

[kokoon]

well the filter is more "filter" (still pretty poor for a 2-pole filter) but it's also got the problems with steppiness.

i'm building mine with 2+2 configuration i think that's the best.

[Jurbo]

8580 + 6581, rocks big time.  8)

I enjoy playing the same patch in stereo, I love the effect that the small differences of the chips make.

By the way, there is so much to be drawn even from a single oscillator, that four sids are really needed only for some heavier sequencer use, in my opinion. The key is to have the full control surface, because it makes morphing the sound easy and intuitive. You get the SID's soul at your fingertips!  :P

The filter changes a lot by using different capacitors, mine are a bit larger in value than the stock ones (I use 4,7 nF on the 8580 insted of 2,2 nF and 1000 pF on the 6581 insted of 470 pF). I think I get the filter range more usable, as the original values give too much playground in the highest treble, where I find it less useful.

Oh, the initial issue on different chips - whatever you like best. You'll know once you have played with both (and you will probably want both after that...). For regular C64 use, the 8580 sucks because the digi-sounds are useless (imagine loading up Skate Or Die with the title music lacking the crushing guitar chord)...

[Nestle]

Thank you, this was a great help... I will order parts for 2+2, I think I have the chips available from my old junkyard of C64s... Most have problems with video-output, so I am sure that the sids are running...

Lets see how this plan starts to evolve...

One question tho, doesnt it create some problemsto use different SIDs  with just one PSU as both use different voltage?

Nestle

[raphael]

One question tho, doesnt it create some problemsto use different SIDs  with just one PSU as both use different voltage?

If you use the optimized C64 PSU (http://www.ucapps.de/mbhp/mbhp_4xsid_c64_psu_optimized.pdf) there won`t be any problem, as each SID PCB has its own regulator (7809 on the 8580 PCB and 7812 on the 6581 PCB).

Raphael

[Nestle]

I am playing it safe  ::) Hopefully someone has patience to guide me thru the ordering part...

I have the following order ready, I just thought about asking if im forgotting something essential...

I will get additional buttons and leds later from a place where my friend works (so I get a proper discount from there ;) )but in this order I have tried to cover everything that is needed to get the actual synth running.

I live in Finland, so I don't want to make several orders just to get that missing PIC or one PCB, etc etc etc...

So, don't get mad, this is just like getting married, big step that should be thought over before doing a thing  :D :D :D

Also, if someone has suggestions about merging MIDIbox FM and SID, now would be a proper time, as i am just getting started... Would it be possible to have single controller for both? My SX-64 case would be so nice, but a bit clumsy for just one synth... Is there a test case... searching in the meanwhile...

Yours,

Nestle

Ok, and the order (from Joergs midishop)  as a copypaste:

MIDIbox SID 8580 + CS

Set-007

MIDIbox SID 6581

Set-006  2 piece

MIDIbox SID 8580

Set-005 1 piece

LC Display 20x2 with backlight

EC-005

ribbon cable, 10. pol 5 meters

EC-002a

5 meter roll

Eeprom for banksticks

EC-012 3 piece

PIC18F452

EC-017 4 piece

(with bootloader)

Total:

208.50 EUR

[illogik]

Also, if someone has suggestions about merging MIDIbox FM and SID, now would be a proper time, as i am just getting started... Would it be possible to have single controller for both?

hi, you could put the 2 synths in the same box (other people are planning to do this too) but they both have dedicated  control surfaces which are quite different, because the handling/programming of the synths is different too.

If you dont need the dedicated control surfaces you could just make the synths without CS but make/use a midicontroller (built inthe case) to control both synths.

i would say; get the sid working for now, maybe in a temporary case; then build the FM, then think of ways of combining them. Mixing the 2 from the start might make (the eventual) troubleshooting more difficult, but of course this is still up to you!

oh, and don't forget to buy encoders!

cheers, marcel

[Nestle]

hi, you could put the 2 synths in the same box (other people are planning to do this too) but they both have dedicated  control surfaces which are quite different, because the handling/programming of the synths is different too.

If you dont need the dedicated control surfaces you could just make the synths without CS but make/use a midicontroller (built inthe case) to control both synths.

i would say; get the sid working for now, maybe in a temporary case; then build the FM, then think of ways of combining them. Mixing the 2 from the start might make (the eventual) troubleshooting more difficult, but of course this is still up to you!

oh, and don't forget to buy encoders!

cheers, marcel

Encoders = datawheel? ;)

Maybe I will choose separate synths after all... they are not that big after all and some controls can be shared or combined using separate midicontroller for co-operative weirdness. And they look nice on your desk...

Nestle

[Jurbo]

Rotary encoder = datawheel, yes.

About your order - I'd say get more ribbon cable, to make sure you're ok. I was really surprised at the total amount of  wire I spent. And the MIDI cables are really cheap at Joerg's, too.

Other than that, your order seems fine, as you said you'll get the rest of the components from a friend (I wonder how anyone can build a full control surface without having some connections in the business as some of the parts will be hard to get or just insanely priced).

This is just a thought: I burned the bootloader myself with the JDM module I built (the MBHP burner is its up-to-date replacement), and I really got a confidence boost from realizing that I was able to build a working device from a bag of little tidbits. So making the burner was good practice and a lot of encouragement for the actual MBSID project.  :)

[Nestle]

Ok, I have started planning of the case and have already soldered all of the modules. Core modules really gave me the creeps, as I only got 4 volts in every single of them during the testing phase. Fortunately I was just feeding the voltage to wrong pins  8), after I learned where to feed the core, every test game me 5.18, whins I hope is inside tolerance?

If someone knows, this would be a good thing to know... So question 1. Is + 5.18v tolerable voltage for + 5v legs of PIC?

As I have all the modules soldered, I will install all 4 sids and cores to power and place them into somekind of temporary casing, possibly C-64. Next phase will be to test if I get software uploaded and somekind of sound out of them using Midi-ox. Better not to plan more ahead  ::)

I have taken some photos, but I lost my mini-usb cable... Hopefully I get to add them in near future.

Looking good,

Nestle

[Nestle]

Going slow and steady, I still havent got my USB-cable, so my photo journal stays in my compact flash card.

I finished step B, only searching for datawheel... Does someone have part code for a good one at Voti.nl?

My synth is working properly, I will transfer programs to chips later today or tomorrow, I have week off, so I try to start step C and finish casing too. Had some problems with Midi-out, but now my leds are blinking nicely ;)

I left the synth on for a hour or so and i noticed that SID-chips got rather hot, i can keep my finger on em, it feels hot, but not burning hot. Still, should I put a heatsink on 'em? How warm are your chips? PICs are more like room temperature.

Voltage dropped to exact voltages after I applied chips on boards, so voltage question I made before solved itself.

Now I go and buy that USB-cable, It is time to add images to this post.

N

[moebius]

As always, the only encoder in Votis shop:

M-SW-ROT (Catalogue->Switches, keypads)

SIDs (6851) have tendency to run quite hot. It's nothing to worry about. You might put heatsink on those. (I've seen C64s use metalshield on top of the PCB to contact SIDs and be sort of heatsinking element)

Moebius

[Nestle]

As always, the only encoder in Votis shop:

M-SW-ROT (Catalogue->Switches, keypads)

SIDs (6851) have tendency to run quite hot. It's nothing to worry about. You might put heatsink on those. (I've seen C64s use metalshield on top of the PCB to contact SIDs and be sort of heatsinking element)

Moebius

Thanks for the tip, I will qlue small heatsinks on all 4 just to be sure. Those new models arent hot really, but they look nicer if every SID has that majestic look  ::)

N

[Nestle]

Well, this is kinda your avarage slideshow, not that much to show. I have just followed the instructions and roamed the uCapps-website when I have had some questions... Nothing spectacular, but who knows what happens when I start building control surface and stuff... So here goes... Hmm, it seems that I managed to cut the images in half, it is 4 SID setup, or one half of it. Anyway, They look more artistic I think...  :P If you right click the images you can see them in whole using 'view image'

Just all the boards on a piece of C-64 that I am about to use as inside cover to separate synthparts and control surface parts.

Completed basic soldering, Midi is sending messages and I am about to start uploading some data on PICs

This is the casing I have planned. It is tech-briefcase that I emptied hardened and separated in two sections, smaller one is for magnetic devices such as subwoofer and power. I am planning to create a pinballmachine like soundsystem into this case (stereo + subwoofer), plus a mounting for mini-midi keyboard, so it is complete soundsystem that only requires power. Soundsystem will work great as a monitor when playing live and gives cool standalone sweetness that I can carry with me anywhere I go.

[Nestle]

Just a quickie:

I can't get my LCD running, I just get backlight and some rapid flashes in matrix itself, but after these short flashes it remains empty.

I only connected LCD using 16 wires, but not any pots or leds, should it work that way?

Nestle

Update: I checked and re-soldered LCD and added din and dout modules (without any pots or buttons). Did not help. If it should work, I will take some pictures so you guys can help me out in noticing if there is some blatant errors.

I have connected all modules, flashed one PIC, everything seems ok - just can't get that lcd running.

[TK.]

just get backlight and some rapid flashes in matrix itself, but after these short flashes it remains empty.

do you see a black bar at the upper line for 2 seconds, thereafter an empty screen, thereafter those short flashes?

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[Nestle]

do you see a black bar at the upper line for 2 seconds, thereafter an empty screen, thereafter those short flashes?

Best Regards, Thorsten.

No, just 2 flashes that make other half of the matrix black, then nothing. I try same display on other core, maybe it gives different output.

My lcd is DEM20231 (http://www.elpro.org/Images/html/Punktmatrixmodule/DEM20231SYH-PY.pdf), got it from Mikes, so its a proper one. I tried the display on 3 other cores, but only gave empty lcd, no dark bars at top or anything. Only the flashed PIC gives the sign of life.

Should lcd work with just 16 wires connection, i mean, without any further parts of minimal control unit, just core, sid and lcd?

N

[TK.]

Yes, it will work without any additional circurity.

But if you don't see the empty bar line, then propably some connections are wrong - you have to double check this. And I hope that a wrong connection didn't destory the LCD, this can happen very fast!

Maybe the contrast pot of the other core modules is not adjusted? However, please don't try this, check the wiring first!

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[Nestle]

Yes, it will work without any additional circurity.

But if you don't see the empty bar line, then propably some connections are wrong - you have to double check this. And I hope that a wrong connection didn't destory the LCD, this can happen very fast!

Maybe the contrast pot of the other core modules is not adjusted? However, please don't try this, check the wiring first!

Best Regards, Thorsten.

I have soldered like a dog...

I removed our nice 16 pin connector and used plain wires. I get the same result, just a quick flash in lcd and continuous backlight.

However, because my frustration kept growing and I was almost sure that the whole synth is flawed, I decised to upload sid-application to my core. I even connected headphones to audio out... Good thing I did, because it works!!!! Oh boy! My sid is alive!!

Thorsten, that cheap pulse... I thank thee!  ;)

LCD seems faulty. The reaction has been the same from beginning, never even changed the wiring, just triple-checked and proved it right. It could be broken from the beginning. Too bad I ordered it from Germany, as it is hard to return. I try to get one from somewhere just to test if I can get it to work.

[Nestle]

I decised to buy me a new LCD to check if the display itself is faulty. ANd behold, it works and now I can continue this project.

Tomorrow I will buy some aluminium for control panel.

One step closer ;)

[Nestle]

I managed to program all PICs and change device_ids to proper values. After tracking down a cold wire, I got 'link'-button to work and got sound from 3 of 4 sids. One of them keeps this continuous high noise. i changed the sid, but the flaw remains.

So, only real clue I have is that high pitch sound that SID #3 sends. Well, I am sure I get it sorted out. -update: fixed, now 4/4 sids are running nicely!!!

BUT, I just read this: http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php?topic=5748.0 So should I apply clocking the SID synchronous to the PIC?

Thanks all,

Nestle

[Nestle]

Just browsing the net to find my midi-keyboard solution. It seems that small keyboards are USB-only, which isn't nice. My intention is to build complete synth, with keyboard. I only have lenght of 45 cm for keyboard. Does anyone has good, small products that carry midi-port too?

Seems rather ridiculous that there is not small midi-products. Maybe some old Casio might do the trick, but they seem a bit rare.

This is what I have found this far: http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/eKeys37-main.html from the more expensive side I found this: http://www.music123.com/Edirol-PCRM1-i148580.music but it has many useless knobs.

With these, I still need to build USB-module, and frankly, I could do without.

Yours,

Nestle

ps. Still wondering about clocking the SID synchronous to the PIC ;)

[stryd_one]

Keep an eye out on eBay for crappy old keyboards that you can rip to bits... I see a good cheap casio POS for less than $30 about 5 times a week. I scored a nice 49 key MIDIMan controller for $7 :)