Intent to sell midiboxes

[rah]

Hi there,

I intend to start building and selling MIDIboxes.  I will start with construction of a box for myself, followed by a box for a musician friend.  Then I will start producing boxes specifically for sale on eBay.  I expect to, at best, break even on the costs of my time.  Assuming that many boxes are sold, I will set up a website that will contain:

• sources to user manuals
  
• changes to MIOS
  
• new component designs, if any are ever created
  
• relevant EDA tools
  
• any other information relevant to customers and to the MIDIbox community
  

If appropriate, I will incorporate a limited company in the UK.

Do I get permission to have a good feeling about doing this?

Thanks,

Robert

[moebius]

Hi.

Do I get permission to have a good feeling about doing this?

Only Mr. Midibox, Thorsten Klose can answer this.

But Don't do it. The midibox project isn't intended for commercial interest of anybody. It's free DIY for anyone. That is the price you have to pay.

Moebius

[TK.]

DENIED

[rah]

DENIED

Can I ask why?

Robert

[Wisefire]

ill answer that for you rah,

no you cant.. read the rules plz..

http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php?topic=5758.0

it clearly says and i quote

TK "will accept or deny your request without mentioning the reasons to avoid endless discussions"

[TK.]

No, because if I would explain the reasons, the next unknown guy could take this as inspiration for a better try

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[TK.]

If you explained your reasoning clearly, there could surely be no more tries

as the reasons would already be spelled out.  In fact, I would imagine that

specifically not explaining the reasons would cause a great deal of endless

discussion.  Also, shying away from an explaination suggests, to me at

least, that the reasons are dubious.

So be it, though.

Robert

But I've explained my reasons very clearly several times in the forum, I'm

just tired of explaining it again and again!

The facts that you don't know me, that you don't know the community, that

the community doesn't know you, is enough to reject your request.

Please tell me a reason, why I should accept your request?

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[5meo-geo]

Greed is one of the biggest sins!!!

u going to hell!!!!!!

[TK.]

I searched the forum before I asked and found nothing.  Could you possibly provide some pointers to these explainations?

Some explanations can be found here: http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php?topic=5758.0, but also in the requests which have already been denied. Note especially the requirement for innovations. Saying "changes to MIOS" already points out, that you don't know how MIOS is working. Based on your descriptions, I don't expect much innovations from your side.

Because from what I can tell (not having seen the explainations you spoke of) my goals are not in contradiction to your goals.  They are, in fact, complimentary and beneficial to one another.

I see your point, but I can tell you, that your intention is in contradiction with my goals. Please let me some days to think about an extension of the Rules to make the requirements more clear.

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[stryd_one]

Do I get permission to have a good feeling about doing this?

Unfortunately you don't get permission to do it at all, regardless of feeling good, bad or ugly about it. Doing so after being denied by TK would be in breach of the license issued to use the IP, and would be punishable by law in most countries, and by other far less pleasant means in the other countries.

I must admit, that as a very busy man, I have often been tempted to have a mate build a midibox for me at my cost, or thought about the benefits of a midibox "shop", not because I lack the skill or inclination to build it myself but because I simply don't have enough time... That said, I realise that this whole project is about more than getting a MIDI controller, it's about learning, experiencing, and growing your skillset, community, and about people who are enthusiastic and determined enough to DIY, and a whole bunch of far more admirable and honourable ideals than being too lazy, greedy, or impatient to make your own.

And besides, with the kits available from not one but two online stores, for cost price or bloody close to it, and all you need to do is follow the clear instructions and be half decent with an iron, why would you bother having someone else make it really? In order to make the operation sufficiently profitable, the manufacturer would have to charge for their time to such a degree that the cost would approach that of commercial controllers (the minimal difference would be the R&D costs, which in your proposed business model, would be money stolen from TK's donation to the greater community, like stealing money from donations made to the poor - We're all knowledge poor, until TK shares). I'm in the rare situation of having little enough time and earning sufficient money to pay for someone else to make it, and at the same time not be able to meet my needs by purchasing a commercial product. The vast majority of people with money enough to pay someone else, will be able to meet their needs with a commercial controller or sequencer or synth, and so wouldn't bother with a semi-DIY approach. I guess that what I'm saying is that outside of your immediate circle of associates who share your enthusiasm for this cool new toy you've discovered, it's probably not that great a business model anyway - the market would be too small and the ethics would probably have you losing sleep at night, assuming you're a half decent human being, not to mention being illegal after TK denied your request.

PS that's not an official explanation, that's just my 2c. The official explanation is "because TK says so". Those who respect his contribution need no further explanation :) MIOS and the MBHP are a contribution of goodwill, not a contribution of monetary value. If money might become involved, it is obvious that TK is the only one qualified to make the decision as to how, or whether at all, it is a good idea.

Edited: Typos

[stryd_one]

Please let me some days to think about an extension of the Rules to make the requirements more clear.

Hi TK. I don't think you should need to do that at all. As I said in my last post:

MIOS and the MBHP are a contribution of goodwill, not a contribution of monetary value. If money might become involved, it is obvious that TK is the only one qualified to make the decision as to how, or whether at all, it is a good idea.

What I am trying to say is, that it is a complex matter, and only you truly know what your intentions are and whether they are being met, and that it seems only sensible that your decision should be final.

Those who's intentions conflict with yours, will always argue with you, no matter what you say.... So there is no point in allowing the opportunity for any argument.

[rah]

Unfortunately you don't get permission to do it at all, regardless of feeling good, bad or ugly about it. Doing so after being denied by TK would be in breach of the license issued to use the IP

The license for what IP?

Robert

[stryd_one]

The license for what IP?

Robert

Do you really have to ask? MIOS/MBHP.

I should clarify seeing as we're online right now, that's IP as in Intellectual Property, not Internet Protocol

[rah]

Do you really have to ask? MIOS/MBHP.

Thorsten has already given me permission to use MIOS.  From the MIOS sources:

; ==========================================================================
;
; Copyright (C) 1998-2004  Thorsten Klose (tk@midibox.org)
;                          http://www.uCApps.de
; 
; ==========================================================================
; 
; This file is part of MIOS
;
; MIOS is free software; you can redistribute it and/or modify
; it under the terms of the GNU General Public License as published by
; the Free Software Foundation; either version 2 of the License, or
; (at your option) any later version.

From the GNU General Public License, version 2:

3.  You may copy and distribute the Program (or a work based on it, under Section 2) in object code or executable form under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above provided that you also do one of the following:

    a) Accompany it with the complete corresponding machine-readable source code, which must be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange; or,

    b) Accompany it with a written offer, valid for at least three years, to give any third party, for a charge no more than your cost of physically performing source distribution, a complete machine-readable copy of the corresponding source code, to be distributed under the terms of Sections 1 and 2 above on a medium customarily used for software interchange

I would not be in breach of the IP license for MIOS by selling a MIDIbox on eBay unless I did not include either the sources or an offer to send the sources.

Regarding "MBHP", that's a project title.  From what I can tell, it doesn't refer to anything specific, let alone a specific thing which contains IP.  I think you need to check up on what exactly the term "IP" refers to, the different forms it can take, and how they might apply to the works on www.ucapps.de.  I've found a good IP information resource for English speakers is the UK patent office.

Regards,

Robert

[moebius]

You simply don't get IT?

"the license" or the way You see it doesn't matter.

Me as a Midiboxer have certain ethics. I highly respect Thorsten Klose for sharing his Intellectual Property for all of use to use and to build midiboxes.

Let's look it the other way:

If TK had decided to NOT publish his IP to the public, rah You wouldn't be here to discuss about using his work for Your Commercial Venture. OK?

If You want to build a midicontroller for You and Your friends - feel free to use MB.

If You want to sell midicontrollers - feel free to make Your Own: Your own code, Your own hardware design

Moebius.

[smashtv]

Ok I grow weary of this, so time for the gloves to come off.  Hi Robert, I'm SmashTV, nice to meet ya.  I came to swing the hammer of logic down on your little enterprise real quick.  No offense, nothing personal, etc.... Just me job.  ;)

Thorsten has already given me permission to use MIOS.

Yeah isnt it great!  We love it and bring much love to Thorsten for sharing it with us.  ;D

I would not be in breach of the IP license for MIOS by selling a MIDIbox on eBay unless I did not include either the sources or an offer to send the sources.

Too bad for your little business plan that you don't have the non-open source bootloader code that MIOS requires to run.  Hope you are sparky with the assembler, otherwise it might take you a while to write a two stage bootloader that will work.

Regarding "MBHP", that's a project title.  From what I can tell, it doesn't refer to anything specific, let alone a specific thing which contains IP.

Check your info resources for the term "infringement of trade dress".  I have several thousand examples of the word MBHP printed on my PCBs, that is considered legally (in both of our countries) to be part of the trade dress of my "product".  MBHP can be easily proven to specifically mean MIDI Box Hardware Platform in court. 

I had my lawyers check that stuff out, sounds like you could benefit from the advice of an IP attorney yourself. 

Now let me suggest this analogy for the spirit of the MIDIbox:

Free beer night at the local pub does not mean you bring in an empty 5 gallon drum, get it filled, then go re-sell it in the parking lot.

And with that logic further applied to the MIDIbox:

If you bring a drum full of good beer you made yourself, the bartender might encourage you to sell it in the parking lot because his regulars like new beer, as long as you don't overcharge for your beer and show the others how you make it so they can do the same. 

Any shady dealing will likely get the bouncers after you though, considering the bartender gave you the knowledge to make your own beer in the first place.

Well, That's all the time I have for this, time to get back to bothering the guys in China (are they ready yet?  are they ready yet?)

SmashTV

[jamram]

Hello Smash,

do I understand you right: You say the "hardware" and the layouts are not GNU-GPL licensed, and maybe the circutry also?

This would mean that I can use the MIOS in any way i like. I do not see any copyright infringement by rah, if he wants to use MIOS.

Noone can be forced to respect any ethics.

Too bad for your little business plan that you don't have the non-open source bootloader code that MIOS requires to run.  Hope you are sparky with the assembler, otherwise it might take you a while to write a two stage bootloader that will work.

If thats the only reason, why one cant build any midiboxes, i'm waiting for the smart chinese guy with his assembler skills. PCB's that are not marked with "MBHP" are very cheap to manufacture in china, too. And since any circuitry is reference design by commodore or microchip with minor changes, your attorney will have a hard time in court...

I'm really amused seeing your problem growing bigger now, after my so often produced extra expensive commercial midibox, I sold on ebay.

Maybe thats, what you have to live with, if something is licensed as GPL.

best regs, jamram

[smashtv]

I'm really amused seeing your problem growing bigger now, after my so often produced extra expensive commercial midibox, I sold on ebay.

Yay for you, now we all fully understand your contempt for this community and we can kill file your posts accordingly. 

Do you remember saying this:

Hopefully I have emphasized enough, i don't wanted to be commercial, just for selling my own -one- sidbox.

in this post? I remember.... were you lying then or now?

/edit turned off the flamethrower (quit taking the flamebait Smash!)  ;)

[Jidis]

You simply don't get IT?

"the license" or the way You see it doesn't matter.

That's my take on it as well. If you've stopped for more than 10 seconds to even think about the legalities of stuff like this, then you're probably already screwing up. :-X

Saying "changes to MIOS" already points out, that you don't know how MIOS is working.

8) To play devil's advocate here:

Robert, I can't speak for Thorsten, but from the impression I get of him, and the people in here, I doubt most of them would want to lock you out for that proposal, or even that they wouldn't be thrilled to see you learning more about what some of this stuff is doing, so that if you're still interested, you might even start producing new devices down the road, for profit or otherwise, and hopefully be able to help some others here with what you'd learned. I'm guessing maybe it's more a matter of just not hanging around here long enough to really see how most of the people feed off of the ideas and knowledge that's floating around. You may find yourself more interested in that, than the construction or even sale of boxes. That's my main reason in here, and I'm happy to say that I've learned way more about digital electronics and basic assembler code, by having something practical and creative to apply it to, than I ever would have otherwise.

Take Care,

George   

[stryd_one]

Noone can be forced to respect any ethics.

No, they can't, but not doing so will certainly not help them in court. Not to mention what could happen to a person attempting to bypass the legal implications by moving the operation to a country where they have little legal protection. China, and similar nations, may lack some copyright laws, but they also lack many other laws and ethics (there's that word again) designed to maintain one's safety and wellbeing. It would be a shame if your shipment were to disappear, or a business partner, leaving you minus large sums of cash or friends.

[jamram]

Hi Smash and others!

I think, you know, what you wrote, but it's way too cool not to quote it again:

Quote

Yay for you, now we all fully understand your contempt for this community and we can kill file your posts accordingly.

[...]

in this post? I remember.... were you lying then or now?

Maybe we have just some difficulties in understanding each other. Maybe the semantic construction of the word -irony- is unknown in american english, or at least so much unpopular, that you are not used to it.

Hm, i think, i never said "commercial" about my midibox. Yeah. Suppose, I said exactly the opposite. You said, I'd be commercial. So I only repeated it. But also, I love lying, it makes the world go round.

Yeah, I love lying. Lying next to my boyfriend.

AND:

This posting is not related to my production line in china.

- What production line in china?

There is no such thing like a midibox production line in china!

So wag the dog!

okay: [/irony]

Talk about legal issues and keep the project going on. Keep knowing, what you need to know and everything is fine. Pay your attorney for the legal issues, if you think he's worth it. I think this discussion is lame, and if not, at least extremely funny. And if you don't want to stand reality, just delete all my files. ...paranoid.

bye, jamram.

[rah]

Check your info resources for the term "infringement of trade dress".  I have several thousand examples of the word MBHP printed on my PCBs, that is considered legally (in both of our countries) to be part of the trade dress of my "product".  MBHP can be easily proven to specifically mean MIDI Box Hardware Platform in court.

I'm not sure what you're referring to by "trade dress"; I've never heard that term before.  I assume you're referring to what, in UK law, is called a "trademark", a restriction on the use of an actual name.  This is not an issue as I don't intend on using the terms "MIDIbox", "MBHP", or any other trade marks, in selling my boxes.

Also, just out of curiousity, why is it OK for you to sell MIDIbox-related products, but not OK for me to sell MIDIbox-related products?

Robert

[rah]

... designed to maintain one's safety and wellbeing. It would be a shame if your shipment were to disappear, or a business partner, leaving you minus large sums of cash or friends.

I noticed this in your previous post; you're actually threatening.  Ye gods man, are you really that much of a knuckle dragger?  Do you think people are going to cower in the face of stryd_one's assertion that their wellbeing is not guaranteed if they sell MIDIboxes?

Are these the ethics of the MIDIbox community?

Robert

[rah]

you might even start producing new devices down the road, for profit or otherwise

Erm.. that's my stated goal.  Profit is not involved, however.

Robert

[illogik]

you people are like parasites, stop it and f ;D k off.

you are not giving anything positive, just want to take...

people here just have a hobby building midiboxes and beeing busy as a community with developing, and most don't like it when people are taking financial advantage of this, especially concidering  the people who put in the most work don't even do this.

If you like midiboxing as a hobby just keep up hanging around, asking relevant things etc. But if you want to produce and sell MIDI equipment you would have to...

develop your own hardware and software platform!!! but this takes time, time you waste lying around and irritating other people

And if you don't want to stand reality

as you may know there are many realities, don't wanna stand in yours too much