MIDIbox SID V2 wishlist

[TK.]

Hi Jess,

do I oversee something? Comprehensive SysEx capabilities are already available, you can request and store patches, and you can change single parameters in realtime.

The JSynthLib based editor uses these functions, did you ever use this tool? (it's nice :))

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[Razmo]

It's already there!?  ???

Where are the SysX specifications to be found then TK? ... I'd like to do an adaption for sounddiver as I use that for all my synths, and I like to keep it all in the same program if possible (too bad my newly acuired Yamaha A3000 sampler is not supported  >:( )

I've been using the JSynthLib program until now, but I find a few things about that program not so good... first, it is rather hard to adjust the knobs... it requires very steady mouse-movements. Also, The values do not really reflect the actual values for SID... The SIDs own ADSR is in steps of 0-15, and it's kind of hard to know when you've increased/decreased a value by 1 (SID wise) because the range is 0-127. Also, the way it handles the libraries and editing is confusing... I've had quite a few patches "disappear" because I chose wrongly when closing edit windows  >:(

Regards, Jess.

[TK.]

The specs are in the release package: midibox_sid_sysex_implementation.txt lists the SysEx commands, and sid_sysex_table.inc the SysEx -> CC mapping (plus some values which are not accessible via CC, e.g. patch name or Layer split points). Details can be easily found out via try&error (or by reading the source code ;-)

I'm aware of the JSynthLib limitations. I'm not a Java programmer and was happy enough to get this JSynthLib based GUI running... :-/

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[Rio]

Does i really need a PIC18f460 PIC for Midibox V2? So than I've to change the  PIC18f452. I've some reservations about changing from V1 to V2:

1.Is it possible to run PIC18f452 and PIC18f460 together in one MidiboxSID?

2.Is it possible that Core-Boards with PIC18f452 (older) and PIC18f460 runs with same new application?

3.I don't know, how you would built up so many boards in one breadbox chassis ;)

4.The most new feature is the stereo feature, right? Will the old MidiboxSID-application developed further? (I don't want to change all my SID Creations - only max. one Core-Platine with 2 SID)

5. Can i use my old CORE-boards for new V2?

[stryd_one]

Yep, the 452 does not have the RAM or codespace required for all the cool new features

1) If the 4620 was the master you'd need an IIC mid out, but otherwise yes (I assume you mean a V1 SID?)

2) If the slaves require less code than the master then the slaves might run on a 452... That's one for TK ;)

3) He's magical hehehehe serious though, risers are handy for that, you can stack the boards up

4) Another one for TK but I'm pretty sure he said that he won't be developing MBSID v1.x after 1.7.303 goes final

5) Yep, TK has considered those who already have a v1 SID :)

[TK.]

It won't be possible to control MBSID V1 slaves from a MBSID V2, because the data formats will be very different. My main intention is to get rid of the old format and not to take compatibility into account. This is very important, otherwise V2 wouldn't provide so many new features (it's not only the stereo option...)

Today I cannot say if it will be possible to run V2 slaves on a PIC18F452. Propably not, because my focus on the new subsystems will be "optimized for speed" and not "optimized for code size"

I won't continue on MBSID V1, maybe only for bugfixes if they are still required, but for nothing else.

There will be a converter script which allows you to transform V1 patches to the new V2 format

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[Rio]

so, if i want to built up an old Midibox SID, first seems so that i only need later to change all PIC18f452 to PIC18f460. So is it possible to use all old Core/SID boards with new PIC?

The FrontPanel-Design and 5V power voltage need not changing, right?

(I ask this, because i want to adjust later the midibox with this new feature on 1x Core)

I know it's hard to say, but in which period will you implement the MBSID V2?

[stryd_one]

i only need later to change all PIC18f452 to PIC18f460. So is it possible to use all old Core/SID boards with new PIC?

The FrontPanel-Design and 5V power voltage need not changing, right?

That's right rio,  but the 4620 needs IIC MIDI module too.

[TK.]

Rio, I think that you've just missed all the infos I've already written down here:

http://www.ucapps.de/midibox_sid_v2_wishlist.html

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[Rio]

I've seen them, but were some special questions, because it was not clear enough for me. And my english understanding isn't the best.

Best Regards, Rio.

[Jaicen]

Ok, this is all sounding great! Do you have a time-frame on the development of the MBSID V2 yet TK??

Should we all go ahead and build the V1's now or wait???

[TK.]

I want to start with the implementation in autumn 2006, I assume that the final release will be ready very fast if everything is planned properly (this document and the long time span until the start). Most features which are listed here have already been evaluated in MIDIbox FM, MIDIbox SEQ and MIDIbox SID-D, so that I don't expect difficulities.

Since MBSID V2 will be almost hardware compatible, I don't know if it really makes sense to wait - just start with MBSID V1, and upgrade later

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[Wilba]

I thought I should add my wishes to the wishlist...

Stereo Option: it will be possible to control two MBHP_SID modules from a single core in order to realize stereo effects and/or to enhance the polyphony, see also the subsystem approach below

This is the big new feature that I'm really looking forward to... it is mentioned that MBSID-Lead will have stereo effects, and MBSID-Multi can have six single-oscillator instruments, but can one MBSID-Lead subsystem in polyphonic mode have an option to do either stereo effects OR six note polyphony when using a "poly" patch?

If that's combined with the other polyphony improvements...

Polyphony improvements: a super-polyphony mode will allow to combine several cores to a single polyphonic instrument.

... this could mean six note polyphony per Core (up to 24 note polyphony!) if each Core is running a "poly" patch.

Similarly, it seems like the MBSID-Multi subsystem could be run in a "polyphonic" mode also... so each note could be played on an osc with its own key-triggered envelope/LFOs.

[TK.]

I think, that using the Lead subsystem is not the best solution for poly sounds, since you need to adjust each oscillator to the same values for best results (like on MBSID V1).

Therefore the Multi mode is better for polyphony, and this is actually how MIDIbox FM is working (I will use the same voice assignment algorithms, they are working great).

... this could mean six note polyphony per Core (up to 24 note polyphony!) if each Core is running a "poly" patch.

Similarly, it seems like the MBSID-Multi subsystem could be run in a "polyphonic" mode also... so each note could be played on an osc with its own key-triggered envelope/LFOs.

exactly! :)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[Wilba]

Yeah I was thinking MBSID-Multi could do polyphonic mode better, as long as there's still some way to modulate the filter, like you can do with a v1 poly patch.

There are times where I would like to have 12 note polyphony on two Cores (four SIDs) and use the other two Cores for bassline and drums, OR use the other two Cores for another 12 note polyphony on the same MIDI channel (i.e. a layered sound, like having 12 note/2 osc per note!). And at other times, I would like to have super-polyphony on all four Cores with a MBSID-Lead patch (4 note/3 osc per note/stereo!).

(sorry if I'm asking the impossible, but this is a wish list!)

[TK.]

The filter will be handled in the same way like for MBSID-D: you can control it from all voices, the modulation values will be properly merged. This allows to use the filter properly so long only voice controls it, and it allows to make some fancy modulation effects once more than one voice is assigned to the filter... :)

In general I see the requirement for following modes (I'm trying to reduce this to the most important variants):

  - single voice polyphony handled by a single PIC/one or two SIDs (up to 6 notes)

  - distributed single voice polyphony handled by multiple PICs (up to 24 notes)

  - distributed multi voice polyphony (lead subsystem - with stereo effecs) handled by multiple PICs

Note that combinations of these modes are possible of course. E.g., using 4 or 2*2 leads assigned to the same channel for unisono sounds.

Or using two PICs using multi subsystem with the first option (no note extension for > 6 notes), but assigned to the same MIDI channel for 2-voice or unisono polyphony...

Or like above, but four PICs, each controls 2 SIDs, each PIC listens to a different MIDI channel for a nice instrumentation

Working with the MIDI Channel and internal/distributed polyphony will open enough possibilities - the two first options are already available in MBSID V1, the third option can be easily implemented into MBSID V2 :)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[Wilba]

Excellent... that's exactly what I was wishing for.  :)

You say the first two options are already available in MBSID v1...

- single voice polyphony handled by a single PIC/one or two SIDs (up to 6 notes)

I assume you mean a "Poly" patch, but only using one SID per PIC (up to 3 notes).

- distributed single voice polyphony handled by multiple PICs (up to 24 notes)

Is this possible now?? i.e. can I get the 4th/5th/6th keys held down to play through another Core/SID?

Or are you referring to creative use of the split function (keyboard zones)? i.e. if 1st/2nd/3rd keys are in one zone and 4th/5th/6th keys are in another zone, you can get six note polyphony with two Cores on the same MIDI channel playing the same patch (except for different zones).

[TK.]

Hi Wilba,

what I meant was, that it's already possible realize mono/poly unisono sounds by assigning the SIDs to the same MIDI channel, and that internal polyphony is also possible (with up to 3 voices, since 2 SIDs are not supported by MBSID V1).

"Distributed" polyphony (if more than the internally accessible voices have to be used) is not possible with MBSID V1, since it requires the same note queue concept like used by MIDIbox FM, with a slight change: external voices of the slaves have to be accessed via MIDI (no problem...)

And a general note (before you guys are starting again to beg for an MBSID V1 update): if the plans for V2 wouldn't exist, I would try to tinker this into V1, but doing extensions in this organically grown up firmware is always a pain, therefore I prefer to implement this into a firmware which is built up from scratch...

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[Wilba]

Technically not a V2 wish, but TK, can you do a build of MBSID v1 for PIC18F4620? I was thinking that some people starting an MBSID now can buy a PIC18F4620 now, instead of having to upgrading later, and those with an MBSID already can upgrade their PICs now. I know some of us  ;)  can just recompile it with different settings, but perhaps you can do an official build that uses IIC MIDI as it will be used in V2.

[TK.]

Thanks to the effort I put into MIOS and the bootloader, the applications itself are software compatible! :)

So, just use the precompiled bootloader and MIOS versions for the PIC18F4620, select the IIC_MIDI interface in the PIC ID header, and it will work

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[Wilba]

I know the 452 and 4620 are pin compatible, but I would have thought they'd have some subtle differences in code. Now where did I put that PIC programmer... it's been so long since I needed it, thanks to uploads via MIDI  ;D

[dcer10]

Hi All,

Im sorry if this has been asked before (couldnt find the info), but will I need to swap all of the pics over to 4620's or just the master? Also has there been any consideration to add amplitude modulation to allow AM synthesis? Is there a pre release version of the software TK? Im getting my hardware setup to allow for an upgrade without opening the case later, it would be nice to test it out.

All the best!!

John

[TK.]

I haven't started to write any line of code for MBSID V2 yet, the whole schedule is shifted due to various reasons, and a first public beta cannot be expected before summer next year.

All PICs should be 4620

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[bill]

Just a thought, i'm sorry if it has been mentioned before :

It would like to be able to trig a patch with a DIN input. (let's say, trig a "C-3")

It could be nice, when you want to hear/tune a patch without a midi keyboard, or simply to test the MBsid :)

Cheerz

bill

[dcer10]

Perhaps a play button for the internal sequencer would be a good way to do this for auditioning sounds in V2 since it will be able to change between all of the stored patterns, this way you could make up patterns for particular kinds of sounds suitable for audition?