Extended front panel design - what to do with two extra buttons?

[ilmenator]

Hi,

so I am now in the design process for my SEQV4 frontpanel - I'll be using Wilba's SEQ board for the upper part and my own creation housing a 4x16 BLM and some extensions that Hawkeye suggested in the lower part.

Also, I will add a Multimec cursor cross with center button (large round cutout in the lower left part of the front panel). This basically means that the Up and DOWN buttons of Wilba's design will be free to trigger other functions. I'd like those power users amongst you (you know who you are :ahappy: ) to come forward with suggestions which function those two buttons should trigger (or how to engrave the panel for those two buttons...).

Also, the center button of the Multimec cursor cross whould probably trigger the SELECT function (or am I wrong?). For this one, I would probably like to keep the SELECT button on Wilba's panel in parallel. Can this be configured in software by just assigning the DIN pins with the same function in the config file?

Thanks for your suggestions, ilmenator

FPD.pdf

[Hawkeye]

Very nice! I like it a lot! Thanks for adding the track position display + step display, can´t wait to see a video of this shiny SEQ :)

Regarding the two free up/down buttons - it depends a lot on your workflow and i can´t say too much about it here, as I don´t use the standard Wilba frontpanel layout, but there are a few new noteworthy functions, which can be assigned to a single button, best to experiment a little before ordering the frontpanel... For my part, i would love to have a dedicated "scroll button" (which is in utility-scroll), because i use that a lot. I also have dedicated "loop" and "follow" buttons, which are used quite often (but which are maybe put on the F1...F4 buttons by default, don´t know :-)).

Also, my personal thought is, that FAST is not necessary, if you have pushable encoders, which improves the feeling a lot, it just makes sense to "press to accellerate" ;-)

Regarding dual button linking, I use two "edit" buttons... they are just connected together in parallel, so that an event is triggered, if either button is depressed, I don´t think it is yet possible to configure this in software yet...

Regarding the mini-BLM - does it display the track triggers of the currently active group?

Please check the wiring for the BPM/Step display digits on breadbooard before creating/ordering a PCB, there was some pin-assignment confusion some time ago and I am not sure, that the documentation is correct.

Many greets and have lots of fun with this thing! ;-)

Peter

Edited August 4, 2012 by Hawkeye

[ilmenator]

Regarding the two free up/down buttons - it depends a lot on your workflow and i can´t say too much about it here, as I don´t use the standard Wilba frontpanel layout, but there are a few new noteworthy functions, which can be assigned to a single button, best to experiment a little before ordering the frontpanel... For my part, i would love to have a dedicated "scroll button" (which is in utility-scroll), because i use that a lot. I also have dedicated "loop" and "follow" buttons, which are used quite often (but which are maybe put on the F1...F4 buttons by default, don´t know :-)).

Ok, so I'll check for the F1...F4 buttons and their default config first. I was going to order a Ponoko panel the coming week, as they have a special offer for large panels and I will combine that with an order for an MB6582 case, so I do not really have the time to experiment too much with my workflow, unfortunately. That's why I was asking for your opinions! (I know this is not what I should be doing, but I need to finish this now or it will have to wait until next year or even later...).

Also, my personal thought is, that FAST is not necessary, if you have pushable encoders, which improves the feeling a lot, it just makes sense to "press to accellerate" ;-)

I am using encoders that do not have a switch function, as they have been laying around in my desk for some time now and I am not going to spend more on parts than I have to. I need to get rid of some stock...

Regarding dual button linking, I use two "edit" buttons... they are just connected together in parallel, so that an event is triggered, if either button is depressed, I don´t think it is yet possible to configure this in software yet...

I would prefer a software solution, as the original SELECT button is on Wilba's frontpanel PCB, and the Multimec assembly sits on a custom made, separate PCB. I'd really like to avoid additional single wires running from one board to the other.

Regarding the mini-BLM - does it display the track triggers of the currently active group?

Not sure what you are talking about here - the LEDs will be dual color ones, and I was originally planning to add the 4x16 BLM directly connected to the Core32 board (the outdated way), not the scalable one with a separate Core8. So would this be possible then?

Please check the wiring for the BPM/Step display digits on breadbooard before creating/ordering a PCB, there was some pin-assignment confusion some time ago and I am not sure, that the documentation is correct.

Good hint, will do so!

Thanks for your comments - any other thoughts?

Best, ilmenator

[ilmenator]

Small update here: after going through the manual, I think it is quite pointless to have the Multimec / cursor cross as the menus are designed for a different kind of paradigm. I'll skip that and have space for something else, e.g. two additional buttons with status LEDs that could be assigned once I have developed my own workflow.

I would have some space for some more bling^TM - e.g. I could increase the relative track position matrix.

@Hawkeye: I saw your early prototype was a 16x8 LED design, what made you downsize to 8x8?

[Hawkeye]

Hi ilmenator,

Had to reduce it to 8x8, because i was out of DOUT pins and the MBSEQ enclosure was totally filled up with PCBs (3x DOUT/3x DIN, 4x IIC, Core32 and AoutNG (not installed yet) in a single old Commodore 1541-II case :).

Also, I thought that people wanting to replicate it, might only want to use one DOUTx4 for additional bling - BPM indicator (4 digits) + Step counter (3 digits) = 7 + 8 DOUT pins and the 8 + 8 DOUT pins for the 8x8 matrix fit nicely (31 pins used).

Also, the four position LEDs per track are normally enough, it is just a bling indicator to show which tracks are unmuted and when they will turn around back to step "1"... But, really important non-bling is the step counter, it really helps a lot when recording, or for precisely timed unmutes/mutes...

The track position display should be fairly easily extendable from 8x8 to a 16x8 matrix, the code is quite simple, and one could make it "switchable" in the configuration, if TK. gives the "go".

Regarding the BLM question - i asked, because I did not investigate that hardware option for the MBSEQv4 yet - i knew it was an option the SEQ V3, but did not know that it was still supported... For a drum setup, this is very nice, because you can see the full pattern drum triggers at a glance, but aren´t 16 buttons and LEDs redundant then? Because one track will always be the active one of the current group/pattern and that is already shown/duplicated beneath the 40x2 displays... don´t want to distract you from the idea - the frontpanel looks very nice as you designed it!

Many greets,

Peter

Edited August 5, 2012 by Hawkeye

[ilmenator]

Great, that sounds good to me - I'll go for the extended bling then. I don't care about the added shift register count, because I will have to order custom made PCBs anyways, and they will hold the necessary number of shift registers. In the new design you can see from the mounting holes that the BLM is on a different board than the BPM/STEP/RTP section - this is mainly because of size restrictions imposed by the board manufacturer (they only do panelization up to a certain size). Shift registers will be daisy-chained from board to board.

And yes, one row of the BLM will be redundant then, if I follow you. However, I think that's something I can live with. Also, as the BLM buttons will be Marquardts, and of different size compared to the Wilba-SEQ ones, it's (almost) impossible to properly align the BLM with the encoders and buttons above. Then it is good to have one complete set, I guess.

FPD.pdf

[Hawkeye]

Very nice, go for it then, I will support you as good as I can with the 16x8 TPD code :)

Just out of pure interest - how much will the panel be with the current Ponoko rebates, approximately?

Many greets,

Peter

[ilmenator]

I am not sure, to be honest - last time I checked a complete MB-6582 case, and that was roughly 70 US$. I would probably expect roughly the same for this panel only. However, shipping costs are rather steep from the US (for the MB-6582 case it would double the price), and the German Formulor don't have the black matte finish which is a must for me. Plus I have a 25% VAT as soon as the panels arrive here in Norway... The current rebates for the large P3 size panel amount to roughly 15 US$ per panel, so it's not really much to speak of. It's rather that I need to finish this now, or it will go in the closet again for another year or so.

Anyways, I am combining a number of panels/cases to cut on shipping costs, too. The panel you see here is only the upper part of something that goes into an old Roland MV-8000 case. The lower part will house the original drumpads on the left and a Stribe on the right (if I get that thing working again...).

Thanks for offering your help - it's very much appreciated!

Best from up north,

ilmenator

[ilmenator]

So I have one TPD 8x8 matrix running, it turned out that the "datasheet" provided by the seller was plain wrong. The LED matrix itself, however, is very nice, dual color, and cheap - bought it here. Now that I have verified how to connect it properly, I'll go for the PCB design with an 8x16 TPD. DOUT galore on that board!

[Hawkeye]

Very nice! Do you like the 8x8 TPD so far?

Many greets,

Peter

[ilmenator]

I have not experimented so much with the SEQ so far - it is still lacking the case. But the TPD is great, I wonder what could be done with the two colors available :drool:

[smokestacksproductions]

So I have one TPD 8x8 matrix running, it turned out that the "datasheet" provided by the seller was plain wrong. The LED matrix itself, however, is very nice, dual color, and cheap - bought it here. Now that I have verified how to connect it properly, I'll go for the PCB design with an 8x16 TPD. DOUT galore on that board!

I would also like to make a PCB with step, tempo, and TPD displays, I'm feeling kind of torn between integrating the shift registers or just using one of smash's doutx4 because they are so much nicer than anything I could etch at home.

Hawkeye: Can we please haz diagram?

... Just kidding, I will try to lay it out based on the information you've already posted in the past, I might have some questions. Thanks for pushing for these awesome features!

[Hawkeye]

Hola,

sorry for the missing schems and the improved adventure level of this small seq hw subproject :-).

Wiring is not difficult:

For the 8x8 TPD you need one DOUT shift register for the cathodes of the 8x8 matrix (for single color usage)

and one DOUT shift register for the anodes... so 8x8 = 64 LEDs can be switched.

For the BPM/STEP LEDs there already exists a schem for the SEQV3 somewhere... verbally, you need one shift register for the common part of the LED digits (say anodes), which connects to each individual digit and thus selects the digit in the matrix output cycle (up to eight digits possible, but only 4 for the tempo and 3 for the step counter are used right now).

The other shift register goes to the seven segment positions and the decimal dot of every digit. I´ve directly fed the LEDs, because even with 50R resistors they were a bit dim - they are pulsed at a high rate which causes the average current per led to be low enough - everything is still alive in my setup, after lots of use :-).

Ilmenator: great to read that! Regarding multi-color LED matrices (mine are duo-color too, but was out of shift registers :-)) - it would be nice to indicate the currently active track and make it red instead of green! If somebody creates an integrated board for a 8x8 or 16x8 duocolor matrix (many shift registers needed!) including step counter and bpm, i´d gladly write the updated code for it - local testing would be beneficial (so send me one, hehehe :-)) - i would totally love to have it in the portable SEQ on my build list.

Many greets,

Peter

Edited August 25, 2012 by Hawkeye

[ilmenator]

If somebody creates an integrated board for a 8x8 or 16x8 duocolor matrix (many shift registers needed!) including step counter and bpm, i´d gladly write the updated code for it - local testing would be beneficial (so send me one, hehehe :-)) - i would totally love to have it in the portable SEQ on my build list.

I'm doing that, yes. I'll try surface mount components, but it might be that we'll still end up with two stacked boards. It will most probably be an order at Laen's, so I'll have to order boards in multiples of three anyways :-).

[Hawkeye]

Great! Ofc I will pay for the board(s)! So you want the full-blown version? Duo color and 16x8?

I´d be very tempted to align the tpd horizontally in this "wide" display configuration... so that it looks like

11111111|99999999

22222222|AAAAAAAA

33333333|BBBBBBBB

...

Where 1 equals the track position leds for track 1, A for 10 and so on...

The LEDs would start to light up in the middle and then "flow" outwards - should be a nice effect :)

Many greets,

Peter

Edited August 25, 2012 by Hawkeye

[ilmenator]

I wonder if it was not more intuitive if the position indicators were all in parallel, dropping "Matrix"-style (the movie) from the top to the bottom or vice versa going up? Well, I guess this can be configured individually if deemed important :smile:

[Hawkeye]

No problem, should be quite easy to make it configurable... To use the second color of the led matrices, another eight pins per LED matrix are necessary, right?

So the whole board would have to contain 8 (2 for bpm/step digits, 3 per led matrix) dout shift registers and one din shift register for bpm control and the additional four buttons?

Might just fit with smd components, but it may get a bit tight on there, but i´d also prefer it integrated (with no external DIN/DOUT modules necessary), if possible on a single board :).

If you design it, maybe you could provide support for a "pushable" encoder to accelerate bpm entry?

It makes a lot of difference on my veroboard seq cs, you can very slowly change bpm by 0.1 increments when not pushed, and by 1-3 bpm increments, when pushed. On a second thought, it would be perfect to have the push function jumpered and either connected to the local DIN shift register, or via a break-out cable to an external "push-to-accellerate" bus, since that feature also currently can be only configured to be on one DIN pin and the gp-encoders need to be push-acceleratable as well... Sorry for flooding you with inputs :)

Many greets and thanks for your efforts!

Peter

Edited August 27, 2012 by Hawkeye

[ilmenator]

That is good input at the right stage of the design process :thumbsup: - Thanks!

[ilmenator]

It's been a long time since I have started this. Well, in the meantime I got my "box" mechanically ready to house the SEQ and the BLM, now it is time to design the TPD board.

 

Peter, could you please take a look at the attached schematics and check for any obvious errors? All LEDs are common cathode types. I could not find infos on the external "push-to-accellerate" bus you mentioned above, how would that work? Is the schematic compatible with what you have in mind?

 

Also, I would assume that pins are freely configurable in software, but if you think it would be easier/faster to implement anything with a different pinout then that should be changed now :smile: .

 

Thanks, ilmenator

 

TrackPositionDisplay_schematic.pdf

[Hawkeye]

Hi ilmenator,

 

great, that the project is continuing!

 

The first look looks good :smile:

But I do not remember exactly how the digits and the LED matrices were connected, so I can´t say anything, other than speculate right now...

 

I would really recommend to test it out on two DOUTx4 boards and put the LED digits and the LED matrices on a breadboard before ordering a PCB.

As murphy says, likely some wires are wrong, I experimented on breadboard until everything worked and the LED digits displayed "sane" numbers... then soldered it up, unfortunately not taking notes, how the connections were done...

 

So, it is great, that you were not as lazy as me and have created nice schems now, if you update it with any errors found, many others will benefit from this! :-).

 

Regarding your other questions...

 

... the push-to-accelerate bus is simply an additional (encoder-)switch, that is connected between GND and the FAST2 DIN pin of the standard MBSEQV4, you can wire up many of these switches and accelerate the SEQ by pressing any of them, but you would probably need only one, for the BPM encoder.

 

... the pinning of especially the digit segments cannot be changed in software (as of yet) - it would be nice, to get the digit segment wiring "right" in hardware, so that it is compatible with other implementers of the SEQ V4 BPM displays, e.g. the 9090 SEQ project, that uses BPM digits as well... that´s why, it needs to be tested on breadboard, first.

 

Note, that the track-position-display code does not support "four" matrices (red1, green1, red2, green2) as of yet. I´d therefore recommend, that you test the four matrix wirings with the existing code:

just configure different matrix anode out shift registers and cathode shift registers, and see if all hardware wiring works as expected, i.e. the right LEDs light up for every of the four combinations!

 

If those four matrix connections work as intended, the support can be done in software, after the PCBs are produced. We´d need to extend the SEQ v4 TPD configuration by a little, e.g. it needs to be defined how many matrices and colors are connected, and which shift register numbers they have. I´d like to do that with physical hardware present, it is just a hell of effort to remote-test that ;-).

 

Many greets!

Peter

 

Edit: by the way, when we invest in those PCBs, i´d recomend to split costs and send one to TK. as well, so he has it in his hardware repository :smile: It will be handy! :smile:

Edited January 19, 2013 by Hawkeye

[ilmenator]

Thanks Peter!

 

I would really recommend to test it out on two DOUTx4 boards and put the LED digits and the LED matrices on a breadboard before ordering a PCB.

As murphy says, likely some wires are wrong, I experimented on breadboard until everything worked and the LED digits displayed "sane" numbers... then soldered it up, unfortunately not taking notes, how the connections were done...

 

That I have obviously done already - a few months have passed, so there was time for this. Also, I suspect that the pinout for the LED matrixes is not the same with every brand, and even the data sheet I got for mine was wrong.

 

... the push-to-accelerate bus is simply an additional (encoder-)switch, that is connected between GND and the FAST2 DIN pin of the standard MBSEQV4, you can wire up many of these switches and accelerate the SEQ by pressing any of them, but you would probably need only one, for the BPM encoder.

 

Great, so the jumper/connector is sitting on the right end of the switch.

 

... the pinning of especially the digit segments cannot be changed in software (as of yet) - it would be nice, to get the digit segment wiring "right" in hardware, so that it is compatible with other implementers of the SEQ V4 BPM displays, e.g. the 808 SEQ project, that uses BPM digits as well... that´s why, it needs to be tested on breadboard, first.

 

For the LED digits I am simply following the official schematics.

 

Note, that the track-position-display code does not support "four" matrices (red1, green1, red2, green2) as of yet. I´d therefore recommend, that you test the four matrix wirings with the existing code:

just configure different matrix anode out shift registers and cathode shift registers, and see if all hardware wiring works as expected, i.e. the right LEDs light up for every of the four combinations!

 

That has been done - obviously I am not going to shell out money for a PCB that is based on schematics that have not been breadboarded. I was rather looking for comments on changes that might make your life as a programmer easier. Apparently there are no such proposals, so I'll just go ahead :smile: .

 

Best, ilmenator

[Hawkeye]

Hi ilmenator!

 

Great, am really looking forward to it - the PCB will be attached to my "mobile" SEQ, a bit of bling is necessary all the time :smile:. Also, I guess other MBSEQ users would love to have one, but let´s get it up and working first :smile:

 

For the LED digits I am simply following the official schematics.

 

That´s the only suggestion I have, please test that LED segment/digit wiring as well - i am not 100% sure, the official schematics fit with the currently active code, which would not be so bad, if there had not been people out there also deducing the wiring from scratch (also testing on breadboard - the most notable user is the MB9090 project), so we should make sure, that we all share the same hardware wiring, which helps to reduce complexity in software.

 

Best of luck and thanks for your efforts!

Peter

Edited January 19, 2013 by Hawkeye

[ilmenator]

After a weekend of trace tetris I have a board design. It's a bit crowded there and not for the shy :pirate: . Harrrrr. Now I wonder if I need to test the official BPM display schematic like Hawkeye suggests or not? TK?

 

 

[orange_hand]

Your extension looks great. If you design your own PCB's for the extension I would be very interested in a set of them :-)

 

What kind of buttons will you use for the 4 x 16 matrix ?

[freddy]

After a weekend of trace tetris I have a board design. It's a bit crowded there and not for the shy :pirate: . Harrrrr. Now I wonder if I need to test the official BPM display schematic like Hawkeye suggests or not? TK?

Looking forward to see the design finalized!

 

Your extension looks great. If you design your own PCB's for the extension I would be very interested in a set of them :-)

So do I, though I probably will use some spare LCDs from my shelf-supplies so the pinout cannot be expected to fit, I hope I'll be able to solve it using wires.

 

What kind of buttons will you use for the 4 x 16 matrix ?

 

Sorry for answering for ilmenator but since i have one of the boards as well these are Marquardt 6425 buttons (with no LED) with the 16mm cap.