Large Format console automation?

[Guest thecheat]

Hey guys and gals,

First of all i stumbled across this info by accident and id just like to say you guys a bloody brilliant. and i plan on building at least a 24 fader controller for my software...just awesome

ANyway im really really new and tragically uninformed about these types of applications. so my question is if it is possible to install motorized faders in a  large format recording console and use the modules or a new one to chase MIDI or SMPTE time code and thereby automating the faders in real time for an analog mixdown? am i crazy? theres gotta be a cheap and easy way to do this... thanks guys

Chris

[LO]

Hi

Pretty sure you just need to buy motorfaders with an audio track (I think they exist?!)

[Guest thecheat]

Yes they do exist, in fact i think most automated faders have them. the problem is getting them to chase timecode. there wont be an audio computer involved so i will need a device to allow the MotorFader unit to sync to a form of time code so the faders will move at the right times. any ideas?

Thanks again

Chris

[shed]

the best option would be to use a computer to record and controll the automation for something based on the midibox lc or similar.   You can get that to sync up to timecode with the right interface.

It only needs to be fairly basic as it would just be handling midi.  So s a failry low speced and cheep machine could be used

[Guest thecheat]

thi sis so crazy it just might work. and now i have another total newbie question, do you need to have a core module for each MotorFader module you use? or can i slave  6 motorfader modules off of one core module? i know this i probably a stupid question but inquiring large format mixing consoles want to know!

Thanks again

Chris

[goyousalukis]

Each core can handle only one MF module for 8 motorfaders.

[Guest thecheat]

Thanks guys. is there a midi Thru option available for them? cause that would be super if i could just use one cable and each one could have a seperate channel.

Chris

[Steven_C]

This would be a very cool idea, if you can get the motorfaders with an audio track (expensive, I think) The system described is exactly how the big automated analogue desks worked in the 80's. (with a computer running the software for the automation) If you get in touch with a service engineer who works on large analogue consoles, I am sure they can recommend the best fader that is value for money.

dunno about the midi thru question.

[cheater]

Thanks guys. is there a midi Thru option available for them? cause that would be super if i could just use one cable and each one could have a seperate channel.

Chris

Read up on slaving cores - like it's done in the MB SID.

Oh, and make sure to report back with any good motorfaders you find out about :)

[Guest thecheat]

well i have the perfect console to try it out on, and i dont think the motorfaders with audio tracks are that expensive, in fact as far as i know MOST of them already have one. im obviously not gonna get 72 ssl faders untill i know they work.

and slaving cores, tell me more?...... hopefully i can put a USB thing on them too. god that would rock. automate any console for under a grand... oh baby oh baby. im really not that knowledgeable about midi cause im primarily an audio guy please help me! ill post anything i learn....

Thanks guys

Chris

[moebius]

Didn't they offer an automation drop-in for Mackie 8Bus - just a box, with a midi and TSR plugs -  32 VCAs?!?

I don't say - but the day you can show 72 ssl motorfaders.. that was P&G's? ..TK will put some more efford to adapt those to MB_MF environment.. Haven't he already? I think I just saw that someone had trouble with those. It's quite unlikely, that those wouldn't work.

Don't trust me one this or ever,

Moebius ;)

[Screaming_Rabbit]

Didn't they offer an automation drop-in for Mackie 8Bus - just a box, with a midi and TSR plugs -  32 VCAs?!?

... yes they did, but no moving faders  :-/

I think I just saw that someone had trouble with those

I'll go with the Alps K-Type fader (almost same quality & price as P&G). But electronically they have exactly the same data as the "cheap" N-Type fader. I hope they work from the beginning  :P

Greets, Roger

[Guest thecheat]

Any good ideas as to where i can pick up some of those Alps ones? are the touch sensetive? i spent a little time trying to find them to no avail. althought i will admit, i didnt try that hard.

thanks guy, im gonna make this work.

Chris

[TK.]

I don't say - but the day you can show 72 ssl motorfaders.. that was P&G's? ..TK will put some more efford to adapt those to MB_MF environment.. Haven't he already? I think I just saw that someone had trouble with those. It's quite unlikely, that those wouldn't work.

So long I haven't received the P&G fader in order to check how it is working, I can only warn: don't use them!

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[Screaming_Rabbit]

Any good ideas as to where i can pick up some of those Alps ones?

http://www.albs.de/albs_e.htm

are the touch sensetive?

http://www3.alps.co.jp/WebObjects/catalog.woa/PDF/E/Potentiometer/SlideMixers/RSN1M/RSA0K11V900C.pdf

... see Page 3 for different Models (incl. Log track)

I'm going for RSA0K11V900C (linear and touch track only).

Greets, Roger

[d2k]

Hey...

Have u got a price sorted on those alps? I think theyre gonna be pretty dear...u'll need lin track for midibox, log for audio no? or is the idea to have 2 lin tracks and use one for vca control? Also, say your using these in the LC/MC app would it be possible to switch between controlling either s/w (logic for instance) and ext analog vol at any givin time? Perhaps you can live without a touch track and just use a regular switch positioned by the fader for a mios emulated touchtrack? works pretty damn well and will prolly knock a few nuggets of the cost :)

Best

[Screaming_Rabbit]

Perhaps you can live without a touch track and just use a regular switch positioned by the fader for a mios emulated touchtrack? works pretty damn well and will prolly knock a few nuggets of the cost

... as far as I know, they even don't come without touch... and I'm so used, working with touch, that I think I couldn't live without anymore.

Have u got a price sorted on those alps? I think theyre gonna be pretty dear

... Yepp! - About 45 Euros

Also, say your using these in the LC/MC app would it be possible to switch between controlling either s/w (logic for instance) and ext analog vol at any givin time?

... you don't need a switch. You would take a RSA0K12xxx (C stands for: coreless motor). This type has the standard Touch track, and the choice of, for example, one linear track and one log track. So you wire the linear track just like in a regular Midibox LC and the log track in the line of the analog mixer channel strip (nicest would be to replace your mixer faders physically). With that you have the choice to work natively within your host DAW software and use the faders to control the DAW mixer or you use the analog mixer and use your host just as a mixer and multitrack player for mixdown. When you use the analog mixer you will have the problem that your software mixer faders will move as well, so you would have twice the attenuation. So just use the bus outs (prefade / direct out) and patch them internally to your DA converters.

Greets, Roger

[Guest thecheat]

Ok so i think im a little overwhemed with information, i need a fader with a motor and an audio track for the mixer and another track, but what is that track called? is it just another audio track? this is pretty confusing for a newb like myself. also what about stereo faders? they need two audio tracks and another track? please help guys i have all kinds of enthusiasm but it seems not the experience just yet.

Chris

[Guest thecheat]

ok i fully intend, if this works to completely replace all the faders on the mixer with moving ones, apparently ALPS are the most superior but my earlier question still stands, what about stereo faders?  

And tell me if im wrong, this is what i need initially....

A fully involved core module,

a fully involved MF module with 8 moving faders with    audio tracks(dont they all have audio tracks?)

shouldnt that be it? im gonna put them physically in the mixer, and beyond that im hoping to daisy-chain the core modules to get at least 40 faders out of them.

will this work? will it not work? how the hell am i gonna program all that? am i crazy for trying it?

Chris

[Screaming_Rabbit]

Ok so i think im a little overwhemed with information, i need a fader with a motor and an audio track for the mixer and another track, but what is that track called? is it just another audio track?

... it's just another resistive plastic slide track on the fader. for every track you can chose it's resistive behavior (linear & log). You can say: I want 2 tracks with log behavior or one linear and one log or two log...

also what about stereo faders? they need two audio tracks and another track?

... yes. But I think this is not available. You have to build a left and right channel fader.

apparently ALPS are the most superior

... with P&G and TKD

im gonna put them physically in the mixer, and beyond that im hoping to daisy-chain the core modules to get at least 40 faders out of them.  

will this work? will it not work?

... if you want to implement it under the LC protocol (locic Control / Mackie Control): 8 Faders per MIDI In/Out... I think daisychaining all of them would give you a to high latency anyway.

how the hell am i gonna program all that? am i crazy for trying it?

If you work with the MididBox LC, you don't have to program much

And tell me if im wrong, this is what i need initially....

A fully involved core module,

a fully involved MF module with 8 moving faders

.. don't you wanna extend it with some buttons... at least a play, stop etc. button?

Greets, Roger

[Guest thecheat]

Well honestly im not too thrilled about the idea of drilling holes in my console for buttons, and im pretty used to having the keyboard for midi in/out and i have remote controls for the tape deck but this is a thought.

so im going to have to use 5 midi channels to get 40 fader channels to automate? i guess i could just use a USB module. it would still be nice to just daisy chain them.

there has to be a fader with two log paths and one linear path, how do the big boys do it then? and thanks alot for the info. everything is coming together kinda.

CHris

[Screaming_Rabbit]

im pretty used to having the keyboard for midi in/out

... with the keyboard is not MIDI In/Out those are keyboard commands based on the windows rules. The advantage of controlling some functions by MIDI, is that no matter which window is active on your computer monitor, your host software will execute the command.

Well honestly im not too thrilled about the idea of drilling holes in my console for buttons

... why not  ;D ::) :-X

What you could do: Design a new hand-rest and extend the functional mixer surface towards you by about 1.5 Inches. This way you could put the original hand-rest pieces in the cellar and mount them again for reselling the mixer at a later time.

Advantage with some buttons: Automated "Mute" and channel selection.

there has to be a fader with two log paths and one linear path, how do the big boys do it then? and thanks alot for the info. everything is coming together kinda.

... I think I saw something like this from P&G. They call the linear track "servo track"... not shure about that... just surf their specs files.

http://www.pennyandgiles.com/index/map.asp

Greets, Roger

[Guest thecheat]

you guys rock. and i mean the keyboard for transport controls.  i dont know why i said midi i/o, it was late. what can i say

and im not thrilled about it cause its not my console lol. and if im not mistaken at least one of the cantidates already has Midi Mute automation

and i will check out that site. i hope so automating stereo faders is hella sweet for efx returns and such.

thanks again

Chris

[Screaming_Rabbit]

http://www.pennyandgiles.com/docGallery/78.PDF

P&G / M3222 has your spezifications...

Greets, Roger

[Steven_C]

You will need a serious power supply for the motorfaders... maybe 8 amps!

You might be able to use the mf_example2_v1_3 loaded into each of the cores, daisy chained, and used in conjunction with a sequencer to record your fader movements... but I'm only guessing, I havent used the mf_example2_v1_3 yet (someone to confirm?) I've only used the midibox LC emulation. (which needs a single midiport for each 8 faders)

Maybe someone can suggest a suitable sequencer/motorfader protocol combination. If you go for LC you may be able to find a used copy of logic on ebay for a reasonable price. (you will need a copy of Logic Audio 5.5.1 for PC or logic platinum 5 or higher)

Does the MB LC application's GPC mode support motorfaders? (someone who has tried it to answer, please) If so then you should be able to use a decent sequencer to automate your faders but the resolution will only be 128. And you probably won't get accuracy better than that anyway, with MIOS controlled motorfaders with an analogue track. If I was trying to build an automation system for a console, and I would use Logic audio on PC due to simplicity of setting up. Cheaper than Protools+motormix, more reliable than Cubase SX and Housten protocol. I don't know how to set up motorfaders on older sequencers.

BTW, many commercial console automation systems use VCA's controlled by the motorfaders, as having a motor close to an audio path (resistive track in this case) can cause noise problems. I have been told that Penny and Giles put a lot of work into designing motors that didn't make a lot of RF noise. There is also another manufacturer (outboard electronics) that made solenoid-actuated flying faders, I imagine that they would be RF/EMI quiet too.

Maybe it would be easier to find a second-hand automation system? Avoid early Sony systems though, I know someone who lost a lot of money and studio time because of one of those Sony's!

There are used pro-studio dealers on the net. If I remember any of them (or where I wrote the addresses down) I will post them here!

This post may sound complex, but I'm just letting you know of what you may be in for.