Intent to sell midiboxes

[Twin-X]

Are these the ethics of the MIDIbox community?

Robert,

I am Jeffry and i am an asshole. To keep my status i ask you the following:

1st  Did you ever helped some here on the forum?

2nd  Have you ever build a midibox and shared information?

3rd  Have you contributed to the community with your own written code?

4th  Have you contributed to the community with a how to build manual?

5th  Have you contributed to the community with a frontpanel design?

6th  Have you contributed to the community with a case design?

7th  Have you shared your resources on getting parts needed?

8th  Have you shown respect and gratittude towards Thorsten of what he has given to the community?

Since you do not comply with any of those the awnser is a big YES!.

Now stop whining like a little child whom's mom say'd "no you cannot have that candy eat your dinner first"

My advice stop it now make a new start and do those 8 lines. And then we discuss this again. period.

Thank you for reading.

[smashtv]

I'm not sure what you're referring to by "trade dress"; I've never heard that term before.  I assume you're referring to what, in UK law, is called a "trademark", a restriction on the use of an actual name.  This is not an issue as I don't intend on using the terms "MIDIbox", "MBHP", or any other trade marks, in selling my boxes.

Well see that's a problem....You have to use those words when you open your source.  A trademark is part of your trade dress, and if you do a little reasearch into judgements of cases on IP you will find trade dress as the start and end to many suits.

Do you honestly think it's alright to erase the name from something and sell it as your own?

Also, just out of curiousity, why is it OK for you to sell MIDIbox-related products, but not OK for me to sell MIDIbox-related products?

Let me first clear up your question....I sell MIDIbox related products, while you are proposing to sell finished MIDIboxes.  There is a fundamental difference.

A quick forum search from years ago would turn up the answers for this question, but I'll repeat here for clarity:

1) I started by asking Thorsten's permission, and he granted it.

Not that there needs to be a number 2, but:

2) I only sell components, not complete modules or boxes.

Smash

[5meo-geo]

Erm.. that's my stated goal.  Profit is not involved, however.

Robert

ahhh sure ur goals is PLURish

im sure u want to do this from the bottom of ur kind heart and give the boxes away for charity

[rah]

Well see that's a problem....You have to use those words when you open your source.

Umm.. I have to offer copies of Thorsten's MIOS sources if I'm to be in compliance with the GPL.  That doesn't involve trademark infringement.  Trademark infringement would be, for example, an eBay auction page that uses the term "MBHP", or a box with "MIDIbox" printed on it.

Do you honestly think it's alright to erase the name from something and sell it as your own?

No I don't.  But then I don't intend on erasing any names.  What do you believe I will be erasing the name from?

Let me first clear up your question....I sell MIDIbox related products, while you are proposing to sell finished MIDIboxes.  There is a fundamental difference.

You haven't answered the question.  Obviously there is a difference between a completed MIDIbox and a PCB.  What I'm asking is: what is the difference, in terms of what is given permission and what isn't?

Robert

[smashtv]

Umm.. I have to offer copies of Thorsten's MIOS sources if I'm to be in compliance with the GPL.  That doesn't involve trademark infringement.  Trademark infringement would be, for example, an eBay auction page that uses the term "MBHP", or a box with "MIDIbox" printed on it.

You are getting confused here.  Infringement starts when you use someone else's design for your own product without their permission. 

With the MIDIbox you need two things to keep you out of court, GPL compliance AND Thorstens express written permission.  Set the GPL aside for a moment and remember Thorsten still owns real copyrights on HIS work, and by extension the trade dress of any derivites.  No interpretation of the GPL can change this.

Please consult a real IP attorney soon on this stuff, not just advice from the net!

You haven't answered the question.  Obviously there is a difference between a completed MIDIbox and a PCB.  What I'm asking is: what is the difference, in terms of what is given permission and what isn't?

I can't answer this completely (I'm not Thorsten), But I have a few guesses:

I started with asking permission, not any statement of intent about what I was going to do with  other people's work.

I re-designed the layouts to make them more "home-etch" freindly (community)

I still answer many build-related questions via email and private msg. (community)

I don't profiteer.  Know any other projects with $5 pro boards?  Didnt think so.  Anyone with simple math skills knows profit is not my motive here.

Answers to your last few questions are easily found by doing a forum search.  Been discussed ad nauseam  years ago.  ;)

SmashTV

[rah]

You are getting confused here.  Infringement starts when you use someone else's design for your own product without their permission.

Whose design for what?  You haven't said what, exactly, contains IP within the MIDIbox project, except the MIOS and trademark "MBHP" and neither of these stop me, or anybody else, selling MIDIboxes.

Thorsten still owns real copyrights on HIS work

What work exactly?

I can't answer this completely (I'm not Thorsten)

Then why did you say anything in the first place?  Thorsten and I have already resolved the issue.  I'm just waiting for you to swing this hammer of logic, as promised.  To be frank, you just seem to be talking rubbish.  Legally, there would seem to be nothing whatsoever to stop me from selling MIDIboxes.  Wanting there to be legal way to stop selling of MIDIboxes doesn't mean there is a legal way to prevent selling of MIDIboxes.

Robert

[smashtv]

Whose design for what?  You haven't said what, exactly, contains IP within the MIDIbox project, except the MIOS and trademark "MBHP" and neither of these stop me, or anybody else, selling MIDIboxes.

The whole concept and the fact that it is released with the rule of "no commercial use".

All of your arguments are seriously flawed if you don't regognize that ALL of this is IP owned by Thorsten.  He's just nice enough to share with anyone without profiteering goals.

What work exactly?  MIOS, the bootloader, all of it.  It's his work, and his right to restrict its commercial use.  The GPL does not give that right away, no matter how you try to read it. Maybe in the absense of the "no commercial use" statement found here, but since that was said, any legal commercial use requires TK's permission.

Again please ask a real attorney about this stuff!

Then why did you say anything in the first place?

Because you asked?

Thorsten and I have already resolved the issue.

Great, care to fill us in on exactly what you resolved, so we don't have to continue to guess your intention as it changes?  What is your plan  today, for profit or not?

I'm just waiting for you to swing this hammer of logic, as promised.  To be frank, you just seem to be talking rubbish.

Fine, that's your opinion.  I'm ready to test it in court, are you? 

Legally, there would seem to be nothing whatsoever to stop me from selling MIDIboxes.  Wanting there to be legal way to stop selling of MIDIboxes doesn't mean there is a legal way to prevent selling of MIDIboxes.

Check yourself on "there would seem"......Please get a real lawyer to help clarify this whole issue for you, it's not my job to teach you about business law in the real world. 

Test my arguments with real professionals, and they will all tell you it's enough  to win an infringement case.

Besides, I can "legally " tie you up in court for as long as needed, all other arguments about legal and right and wrong aside....Since I obviously can't put the spirit of this community in words you can understand.

So you have a choice, cheap lesson now, or expensive lesson later.

SmashTV

[jamram]

hello rah,

Then why did you say anything in the first place?  Thorsten and I have already resolved the issue.  I'm just waiting for you to swing this hammer of logic, as promised.  To be frank, you just seem to be talking rubbish.  Legally, there would seem to be nothing whatsoever to stop me from selling MIDIboxes.  Wanting there to be legal way to stop selling of MIDIboxes doesn't mean there is a legal way to prevent selling of MIDIboxes.

Robert

It's exactly my opinion. I think, a few people haven't understood the GPL and neither have their attorneys. And some people live in an other reality. I don't understand why somebody would spend any money on legal discussions about midiboxes. Take a look at the specs of the MOS6581 for example. You'll find a reference design for the circuitry. Same thing for the PIC. It took me one day to get a pcb out of EAGLE, everything layouted by myself. The development depth of the core-board circuitry is maybe slightly above public domain. PSU development in MBHP way is state of the art. The only thing concerning the SID, that could be worth an attorneys effort would be MIOS and SID-application. But both of them are GPL.

Anybody, who likes to sell a midibox compatible hardware platform and is willing to spend one day in redesign, can do this without fear of legal harrassment. If this wasnt intended, it shouldn't have be GPL'ed.

SmashTV knows about the redesign efforts. He said he has done this. And so have I for myself. But I will NOT present it to a community with this kind of ethics.

If you really want to start a business, I can take over the trading in Germany, if u like ;o)

(Is it that, what you wanted to read from me, SmashTV? Okay, here u are!)

greetinx, jamram

[smashtv]

If you really want to start a business, I can take over the trading in Germany, if u like ;o)

From where, the college lab?

Your desperation to argue is funny to me, along with the fact that your gay lifestyle only seems to be a problem for you, yet you keep trying to make it an issue when irrelevant.

(Is it that, what you wanted to read from me, SmashTV? Okay, here u are!)

blah blah whatever, you need to look somewhere else for a fight.

I hope you really trust in rah's business practices, since now you will be co-defendants assuming either of you can manage anything better than a hot-glue constructed SID on eBay.

[TK.]

Maybe choosing the GPL wasn't a clever idea - my main intention was, that I wanted to give back something to the GNU community as a tribute for the great GNU software I'm using for myself. Of course, it was very clear to me, that this also opened the possibility for everybody to run my software on commercial designs, but at the time I made the decision, it wasn't predictable that the project could ever get such a big acceptance, that even those salesmen become interested.

However, you might find reasons to call me a naive guy, but I want to give you following considerations:

At any time I can switch to another license like the Creative Commons (see http://creativecommons.org/licenses/by-nc-sa/2.5/) in order to protect my designs against people who are trying to use it in a direction which I don't like.

Of course, this means that old software versions released under GPL are still free in the terms of this license. You can make variations and alterations, you could even develop something wonderful based on the old stuff.

But such a step would also mean, that you will be prevented from keeping your "products" up-to-date to the main branch - all tries will either lead to a lot of effort at your side, or they will be illegal.

Worst case for your venture: if I would switch to another hardware platform. An easy step for DIY people, a financial  risk for yourself.

Also your reputation won't be the best if the press or your feedback on EBay says "nice product, but sold against the will of the originator, and therefore not supported"

I definietly don't want to say, that nobody else but me could realize such projects (far from it - experts should know, that there are flaws which are hard to change without a major redesign - I've learned from it, you not), but I think that I'm allowed to say, that all people who follow the "MIDIbox spirit" will have a big advantage: a great community which is giving a lot of inspirations, which helps to debug and improve the projects, which motivates to continue and to realize things which are just different from commercial stuff you can find on the market.

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[rah]

The whole concept

Concepts are only covered by patents.  Unless Thorsten has an patent on the MBHP, which I find very unlikely, the concept is open to exploitation, legally, regardless of how much you might hate that fact.

the fact that it is released with the rule of "no commercial use".

ALL of this is IP owned by Thorsten

What work exactly?  MIOS, the bootloader, all of it.

You keep saying "it" and "this" and make other ambiguous references to something which has IP rights attached to it but you still haven't said what that something is.  I was expecting you to point out what this something is; to swing the hammer of logic.  You haven't done that.  It's like you believe Thorsten has a claim against anyone making a DIY MIDI controller.

A concept or an idea isn't covered by IP law unless a patent is involved.  Copyrights apply to a work of some sort; be it some words, or some music, or whatever.  I don't believe I have to copy any such works in order to build a MIDIbox, except to download the web page to my browser and I understand the judicial position so far is that viewing web pages on the public internet is not considered copyright infringement.  If I copied files from www.ucapps.de and tried to sell those, then there would be a copyright issue.  Building a MIDIbox using the ideas on somebody's public web pages doesn't, as far as I can tell, infringe on any copyrights.

Trademarks would only be applicable if I were to use them in decoration or sales literature, or trade on their value in some other way.  The only IP left is a registered design which only applies to the outside of a product, and even then they have to be explicitly registered.  I certainly don't intend on copying anybody's enclosure or surface designs, regardless of whether they've registered them, which I doubt anybody has anyway.

So what, exactly, is this "something" that has IP rights involved, that you are so adament exists?

Again please ask a real attorney about this stuff!

If I expected to have to face any legal challenges I would.  It seems to me you don't have a leg to stand on.  Regardless, I haven't even bought any components for my own MIDIbox yet, so that would seem a little premature.

Great, care to fill us in on exactly what you resolved

We resolved, or at least I suggested and wasn't rebuffed, that the issue should be shelved until such time as the benefits are clear.

so we don't have to continue to guess your intention as it changes?

My intention hasn't changed since I posted it.  I can't imagine why you would think it had changed.

What is your plan  today, for profit or not?

As noted in my original post, I don't expect to make any profit.  That doesn't mean no profit will be made, but it does mean that I'm not doing it for profit.  That seems, to me, to be pretty much exactly what you do with the PCBs.

it's not my job to teach you about business law in the real world

Indeed it isn't.  It was was the job of my university lecturer, and I think he did pretty well.

Besides, I can "legally " tie you up in court for as long as needed, all other arguments about legal and right and wrong aside

Courts really, really don't like it when people do that.  And you just stated your intent to do so.  Let me make a suggestion: be quiet.

Robert

[rah]

If you really want to start a business, I can take over the trading in Germany, if u like ;o)

I'm not interested in starting a business, but I am interested in building MIDIboxes.  The only the reason I mentioned a limited company is that it might be a convenient framework to present the boxes to the public.  It would also provide financial benefits in the form of tax breaks if the sales reached a decent volume.  That means cheaper components, PCB etching, etc.

Robert

[rah]

Your desperation to argue is funny to me, along with the fact that your gay lifestyle only seems to be a problem for you

:o

If I'd known I was talking to a homophobe, I wouldn't have bothered with you.

[smashtv]

:o

If I'd realised I was talking to a homophobe,

You completely misunderstood my comment, I am not a homophobe.  I was only trying to point out that his statements about his gay-ness have no relevance whatsoever to this issue, and you should be wondering why your only ally here  thinks this is the place for that discussion....He's trolling for a reaction to anything, pure and simple.

I could really care less if he plays for the other team, quite a few of my good freinds do.

Or maybe you don't misunderstand, and your position here is so futile that you welcome any help even if they dilute your argument into oblivion....

So what's next?  The race card?

I wouldn't have bothered with you.

Sorry son, you have no choice but to bother with me, as I have been here for years and I'll still be here when you are gone.  ;)

Did you ever stop to think, if this were the right thing to do, why the other 5000 members of this community have not done it already? 

If you really want to bring this down to some personal argument,I'll lock this thread and we can move to a private chat.....But don't call me something I'm not.

[rah]

You completely misunderstood my comment, I am not a homophobe.  I was only trying to point out that his statements about his gay-ness have no relevance whatsoever to this issue

Indeed; I appologise.  I misread your comment.  What threw me is that I can't actually find any mention of sexuality anywhere in this discussion (and I still can't so I have to wonder, what comments are you talking about?)

and you should be wondering why your only ally here  thinks this is the place for that discussion

I'm not interested in any "ally"; like you said, this is a discussion not a bloody war.  I'm not interested in sides or winning or losing, I'm interested in clarifying whatever misunderstanding has caused the very obvious friction, regardless of whose misunderstanding it is.  Unfortunately, that seems to be an impossible task as other people do seem to be concentrating on winning something.

Sorry son, you have no choice but to bother with me, as I have been here for years and I'll still be here when you are gone.  ;)

I would just point out that I could ignore your comments, like I have others'.

Did you ever stop to think, if this were the right thing to do, why the other 5000 members of this community have not done it already? 

As noted, it seems other people are doing it.  Both yourself and Mike (whoever he may be) are selling PCBs.  I haven't had an answer yet as to how my intent is ethically different from yours.  To me, it seems that there is no ethical difference.  I suspect you may see a difference that doesn't exist because you've made assumptions about my motivation.

Robert

[jamram]

Hi Rah,

maybe, you were aware of this thread:

http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php?topic=4387.0

It's the same kind of assumption, that made me commercial from Smash's point of view. Last year this made me feel like midibox is a kind of religion or something like that with TK as a god, wether he likes or not, and all contributors as priest, wether they like or not.

I don't want to trade midiboxes, just for correct understanding. This was my strike-back flaming to SmashTV, so i said "wag the dog!".

I have already started my own project with PIC and SID, though it will take some time to get it "midified" an really operating like a synth I have in mind. Producing a sound does just take 80 lines of C18-code and on the breadboard only few parts are required. Making it a synth takes a lot more and a good concept, of course. The MBSID implementation is interesting, so I built one (and the first one I sold on ebay). But the ideas I have about the SID differ very much from the MBSID step3. So I have develop everything myself. I'd have  liked contributing, but this community gave me the feeling of something like Jehovas witnesses or so... "you're a good boy respecting everything we want, and no discussion about it". Now I try to make my own way, maybe i'll suffer, but I hope i won't.

PS some plots about my recherches yet:

- anyone wants a cheaper D/A converter than MAX525, look at analog devices homepage... they offer free samples of several devices and the quality is really good (eg: AD558 (8Bit parallel, very oldskool but often used) or AD7245 (12Bits). You can make them "serial" if you use the famous 74595 *g*

- controlling everything via a databus and 3to8 converter (74138) makes the timing much faster (100k samples per second or retriggers for the sid... (since the firmware has not very much to work yet)

Well, so far. I want to respect everybody, but I can't understand most of them. ;o)

bye, jamram

[illogik]

whatever misunderstanding has caused the very obvious friction

you ask permission for something, people you ask say no and explain themself; and you keep asking why, but., if... and trying to find a thing to say which would make it ok afterall....

when people share something this way instead of make money from it; its obvious that it is non-profit project and i think it's a bit childish/egocentric to react the way you do.

people in such projects don't want to spend all their time on explaining and explaining why we don't like the thing you suggested which maybe accounts for the so called jehova behaviour

(allthough i think you don't know too many of them)

it's a nice thing that all this info can be found on the internet, should inspire you and it would be nice if you would respect that people don't keep this for themselves

[pwx]

rah, jamram!

STOP THIS!

It´s really easy to talk shit like that without showing your location, he?!

....you´re from germany,... fine, me, too....  show your location and we´ll meet and discuss,.... or is this too hard for u ,he?!

Please again, stopp this!

We´ve got no time for that bullshit!! If you want to earn money, create your own stuff, write your own programs,.... and don´t waste your time.

TK and all the others: Sorry, but what´s that ???

Best,

pwx

Location: Berlin/Friedrichshain/GERMANY

[rah]

It´s really easy to talk shit like that without showing your location, he?!

EDIT: LINK REMOVED

Edited April 9, 2010 by smashtv
Link removed due to whining "I still get hits on my website from the thread I started"

[Jidis]

Erm.. that's my stated goal.  Profit is not involved, however.

Apologies, I probably wasn't clear enough on that. I just meant that if you get deep enough into the whole MIOS structure and what the apps and functions are doing (as well as the circuitry obviously), you may find it easy to build unique devices that you, or others may need, either as enhancements or additions to the MB code (for others here as well), or even separate devices for use with digital music gear, or any digital hardware for that matter.

Some of what I've learned here has enabled me to work with basic serial MIDI i/o from smaller PIC chips, and I already have several ideas for that stuff, for my own personal needs. It's also given me a much better understanding of serial i/o and "bit banging" junk in general, which I may use for anything (I'm currently playing with some PIC IR transmission).

Hang out, learn, have fun, and stop arguing. (please)

George

PS- I still like the idea of MB's for "trade". I can't see anyone here having a problem with that (can I?). If you were constantly making new boxes (not duplicates), but couldn't realistically use them all, wouldn't trading them for other music gear that you needed (not $) be an agreeable solution? It seems if you had something cool, and threw a WTT message up say, in a for sale forum or newsgroup, with a link to some pictures, and stated "I'm looking for this, that, and this, but I'll take offers", if it was a cool enough box, it seems someone would have something nice sitting around that you could really use.

???

[pwx]

LINK REMOVED AS WELL

Ok, cool, good to know!

see ya,

pwx

Edited April 9, 2010 by nILS
Link removed due to whining "I still get hits on my website from the thread I started"

[rah]

Apologies, I probably wasn't clear enough on that. I just meant that if you get deep enough into the whole MIOS structure and what the apps and functions are doing (as well as the circuitry obviously), you may find it easy to build unique devices that you, or others may need, either as enhancements or additions to the MB code (for others here as well), or even separate devices for use with digital music gear, or any digital hardware for that matter.

Yes.  That's my goal.  Perhaps I wasn't clear enough on that..

Robert

[offe]

Ok, as Smash mentioned earlier, gloves off...  ;)

This is nothing but a flamebait, really. Normally I wouldn't waste my precious spare time on writing this, but this is getting absurd guys! In my opinion, TK's doing a great job, providing the community with open source hw/sw. If anyone likes to sell their homebrew SID/FM/LC whatever, I think that's fine. However, setting up a business based on other peoples work and effort is just a lame. Why don't you people contribute to the community instead?

There are a lot of pre-fabricated MIDI controllers out there, some good, some bad, but the midibox is something anyone can configure to suit their needs. Several open source projects have been made commercial and that doesn't bring anything good. For the community, let's hope TK can keep the license model, but I understand that you need to protect the mbhp.

And, TK, although this is an extremly annoing discussion, it somehow proves you and the other guys at midibox.org have done an extreemly good job! I'm just waiting to get the chance to give something back!

/offe

[rah]

If anyone likes to sell their homebrew SID/FM/LC whatever, I think that's fine. However, setting up a business based on other peoples work and effort is just a lame. Why don't you people contribute to the community instead?

Setting up a business and contributing to the community are not mutually exclusive.

Robert

[stryd_one]

Setting up a business and contributing to the community are not mutually exclusive.

What contributions do you plan on making?