Can Anyone make PCB's here for a low price?

[dengel]

I have the following single layer, simple board:

No drilling needed or anything - I can take care of that. I'm just a bit chemical phobic frankly, and don't see myself doing too many more PCB's myself and can't justify the expense of buying all the materials needed for just these few boards.

What might someone here charge to etch 6 of these boards?? They measure 55mm x 105mm (including the outer mounting hole area, not shown).

[Rowan]

You would be suprised how cheap it is to make your own boards and there really isn't much to it.

1/ Get you self some copper clad board.

2/ Get a pack of A4 adhesive labels that are designed to run thru printers or photocopiers

3/ Peel of the lable from the above and throw away the label, but keep the glossy backing paper.

4/ Photocopy your board layout on to the glossy side of the backing paper.

5/ Get a household clothes iron, place the photocopy of your board on to the copper clad board (glossy side facing the copper............and practice your ironing skills..............If you have a woman in your life she will be amazed at your ironing prowess.

6/ after some time the photocopier toner on the label backing will melt and stick to the copper.

7/ carfuly peel the label backing away and presto you will be left with a board read to etch.

8/ soke in WARM etching chemical for about 20-30 min (this varies depending on the board size and how much copper is to be etched.

9/ once all the copper is gone remove from the chemicals and wash with water.

10/ get some steel wool and scrub off the toner that has to the board.

And now you have a PCB ready to cut and drill.

In all it sould take an afternoon to do start to finish.

Rowan

[dengel]

If I happen to have iron on transfer paper already, can I use that instead of the label backing?

[Rowan]

Do you meen "press 'n' peel"?

The method I mentioned above is dead simple and dirt cheap. There is a link somewhere on the forum with a detailed tutorial about how to do it

Rowan

[Rowan]

Your iron on transfer may work, it will depend on weather it is chemical resistant or not.

The glossy paper and toner is tried and tested.....trust me it works better than you could believe, you just have to be a little careful. If you mess up, it won't cost the earth

[dengel]

Yeah, I've read the tutorial. My wife is getting a bit "off" as she gets more pregnant, and unfortunately bring in a ferro-chloride etching bath  home might not be the best idea...

I have done silkscreening in the past, using a photo-etch process. What's your take on photoetch boards, rather than the chem-resist method you so wonderfully described (thanks, BTW).

[Rowan]

Photo etch boards still need chemical to dissolve the copper.............catch 22 ;)

the first time I made boards like this I to was living with a rather irritable woman, get yourself a cheap plastic tray and use that to etch the boards in. But make sure that you dispose to the etching solution well, it leaves a nasty blue stain.

[Wild_Weasel]

Hi!

I can confirm that. Toner transfer is dead easy once you have found the right paper. For me a simple page from a glossy magazine worked best.

Another trick is to sand the copper board (I thinked I used 400 paper) and to wash it faithful with soap so that any copper particles are washed out. Otherwise the toner won't stick to the copper.

Another thing I confirm is that Fe03 etching sollutions leaves a green stain. Spilled a little and now some tiles are colored. Never mind.

I believe it is the dissolved copper which causes that.

Which program did you use to design your board. Looks very cool indeed.

Do you mind if I make a 8 by 8 grid for my monome clone.

My first lights out should arrive next week.

regards

Michael

[smashtv]

Ok I'll repeat myself here vs. watching you guys throw your time and money away to learn a lesson....

Without tinning the contact surface, the bare copper will self-oxidize and you will find yourself taking this apart every few months to clean those contact points.  Less time if you live near salt water.

Start praying now that it does not fail you during a show.  :-\

The easy way?  Cut up the board that already has the correct contact surfaces on it, use them instead.....epoxy to a carrier protoboard, etc.

Best

Smash

[dengel]

Smash, I trust you on that - but what magical method do the factories use to make this work? Because I've taken apart the case, and there is no sealing whatsoever - other than that provided by the silicon flange.

My board is essentially a direct copy of the PCB that came with the unit. Do they do something magical to prevent corrosion whilst maintaining contact? I mean, the device I cut up is from 1995 (when they stopped making this model game) and it worked like a champ. Is it possible for a home user to tin contacts, or must I use express PCB or something?

Thoughts on professionalism is one reason I asked if anyone else burned boards - either as a hobby or as a living - so that I could get the most relable product.

One other thing: I planned on sealing the edges of the boards where the board meets the rubber with a thin silicon layer. Will that help things, if I can prevent new air from getting in there?

[dengel]

Which program did you use to design your board. Looks very cool indeed.

Do you mind if I make a 8 by 8 grid for my monome clone.

My first lights out should arrive next week.

I use Illustrator to do most everything, and then I have been using Rowan's printout technique to ensure that it all fits where it should. If you need and EPS or SVG file for your own use, let me know.

[th0mas]

I'm going the reuse-route.

It's going pretty good.. 9 of my 16 buttons have vias on their internal half of the pads to wire to, the other 7 I'm going to add a (tiny) blob of solder to connect one of the inner LCD vias to the internal side of the pad.  For grounds, there are currently 3 isolated groups, each of which have at least one via to solder a wire to, so I'll just solder the requisite wires and connect them all to the DIN ground.  Wiring the LED's should be simple since there's a good 5mm of leg left on the PCB :).

To mount I'm going to, like Smash suggested, make a carrier PCB that's basically a big border around the PCB and connect the two together on the one remaining hole left for screwing (near the transisters).  If I have to, I'll make another but I don't have much room since I drilled off the remaining PCB to save the other 9 buttons for the rest of my SEQ.

[dengel]

I'd like to do the re-use route, but I am trying to use ribbon cables wherever I can to make assembly and repair as easy as possible. How are you scratching off the traces between buttons, since many/most of the buttons are connected together?

In the "Clear Buttons" thread I went through what you've described, and in the Toyland thread there's a pic I made of what you are doing to re-use things. I'm just hoping to make custom ones somehow so that I am not tied to finding an old Light's Out game everytime I need a replacement part.

One other option is to mount tact switches inside and make the whole thing mechanical. I honestly didn't think that was going to be an option, until I saw How friggin deep these buttons are. The inner dimensions of the holes are 9mmx10mm, and the hole is 1cm deep. The tops are thick enough that they could easily actuate a button.

[Wild_Weasel]

I read about tinning your homemade PCB yesterday.

This guy used a iron, mounted upside down and this paste used by plumbers to solder copper pipes. It is made of grinded tin and lots of flux I think.

I'll post the link whe I find it.

Greetings

Michael

[th0mas]

I'd like to do the re-use route, but I am trying to use ribbon cables wherever I can to make assembly and repair as easy as possible. How are you scratching off the traces between buttons, since many/most of the buttons are connected together?

Well, I kept all the grounds (outer portion) connected since they are anyways when you connect them to the DIN.. so it's just a matter of isolating each of the central portions (which do connect to each other, usually a via and then a trace on the opposite side of the board).  To get rid of those I'm just dremelling with a cutting stone deep enough to destroy the trace visibly (which is deep enough sometimes by accident :) ).  I also destroyed all traces connecting LEDS to one another so I can just solder all the grounds together and then individual wires to each of the anodes (I might mean 'cathode'.. I forgot which is which atm). to the output on the DOUT.

One other option is to mount tact switches inside and make the whole thing mechanical. I honestly didn't think that was going to be an option, until I saw How friggin deep these buttons are. The inner dimensions of the holes are 9mmx10mm, and the hole is 1cm deep. The tops are thick enough that they could easily actuate a button.

That would be a cool solution!  It'd feel a lot better than the rubbery give-feel that the lights-out buttons have.  I don't find them solid enough but am keeping them anyways.

[Tibia]

Dengel...

"One other thing: I planned on sealing the edges of the boards where the board meets the rubber with a thin silicon layer. Will that help things, if I can prevent new air from getting in there?"

Make sure you use an electrical/electronics grade silicone as the generic type gives off acidic fumes during the cure cycle...  very effectively etching existing copper traces.

Bob

[Wild_Weasel]

Hi!

Here is the link to the guy who is tinning his boards.

Just noticed that he is using a heat gun not a iron.

http://thomaspfeifer.net/platinen_verzinnen.htm

Sorry. Only in german.

He is using Fittingslotpaste Rosol 3 but I think any flux paste will do as long as the copper is oxide free.

I will try that on the weekend.

http://thomaspfeifer.net/smd_mit_buegeleisen_ausloeten.htm

This might also be a cool way to unsolder the chips for the OPL3 Module.

Regards

WW

[dengel]

German to English (via Google) of the above Page:

Even manufactured does not have the disadvantage the this opposite professionally hergstellten plates is tinned. Thus they can be soldered and not become, in particular with very fine SMD applications, so well after some time unattractively.

Solutions the tin on chemical way separate are a possibility. In addition, it goes substantially faster and more cheaply.

With my plates I use the “fitting plumb bob paste Rosol 3†from Rothenberger, which one can purchase for a few euro in each building market. The high-viscosity paste is laid on simply with a brush to the plate and warmed up then with the hot desire pistol. One can wipe redundant tin away with a rag. Since the paste contains a water-soluble fluxing agent, the arrears can be washed off also easily under flowing water.

The HOT DESIRE PISTOL! That is awesome, that's what I am going to call my heat gun from now on.

Make sure you use an electrical/electronics grade silicone as the generic type gives off acidic fumes during the cure cycle...  very effectively etching existing copper traces.

Wow, thanks Bob! Appreciate the tip. Do you think that sealing it off will cure the problem of corrosion within limits ( like give it 1 year or so of life)? I could handle a 1-year maintenance cycle, I think.

[smashtv]

The HOT DESIRE PISTOL! That is awesome, that's what I am going to call my heat gun from now on.

Hahahaha me too!  ;D  Now I can proudly proclaim that I used my "hot desire pistol" to pack orders..... ;)

This method is called HASL (Hot Air Solder Leveling) by the pros, and is a long time practice as the least expensive tin method....

The problem is it gives you a solder contact surface (mostly lead if non RoHS, mostly some more harmful alloy if RoHS compliant) and neither works well as a contact surface conductor.....  :-\

So while it does stop corrosion effectively, you might find yourself still really having to mash the buttons (depends on the carbon mixture used on the button pad itself) and some fluxes like to eat plastics (a whole other issue).....  :-\

I have used a product named "tinnit" (google "tinnit pcb") a few times, it works well if you carefully follow the instructions, and don't allow any other chemicals near it (in other words a tiny amount of anything else in the solution ruins it, like any soap film or tap water left on the pcb).

The wildcard on this is that I don't know if you can get a thick enough tin deposit on there for reliable operation without it rubbing through to the copper.

Best

Smash

[stryd_one]

It's amazing how often an iron comes in handy :)

I like that desoldering method, but I can't help but wonder about it getting too hot. I was thinking that if you could hold down the board with a lump of timber (or something else that won't burn), and keep pulling gently on the IC with your IC removal tool, then as soon as the solder was hot enough to melt, the IC would jump right off the board. The question is, how hot should the iron be? It seem to me that if it were as hot as possible, then the solder would melt quickly and allow to remove the IC without allowing time for the heat to travel up the pins into the IC? What would be perfect is some sort of heatsink that sits on all the pins at the same time, and draws out the heat before it reaches the IC...

[DavidBanner]

that if you could hold down the board with a lump of timber (or something else that won't burn),

does anyone else find that funny or is it just me?

[dengel]

Don't you mean "HOT DESIRE SOLDER LEVELING ?

[stryd_one]

LOL yeh OK timber does burn, but you know what I mean, like, a lump of hardwood won't catch fire on an iron....

Maybe I'm just too accustomed to these great Aussie hardwoods that are too dense to burn?

[DavidBanner]

i know what you meant, and yes of course the timber won't burn doing what you described,

just found the statement kinda funny...

and yes, a nice bit of jarra isn't gonna burn too quick

[stryd_one]

Yeh it read like "Use solder or something else which is hard and won't melt" heheheh