MIDIbox SID-NUXX-based synth on eBay?!?

[c0nsumer]

This is odd. I just noticed that someone is selling a MIDIbox SID (290153272206) which is based on one of my MIDIbox SID-NUXX PCBs.

With the software used for the development of that PCB being non-profit I licensed the board design under the Creative Commons Non-Commercial license. That means he can't sell the board. I've contacted him via eBay as well as contacting the owner of the blog which pointed to the auction so I can try and get in touch with the seller directly.

I sent a couple individuals spare PCBs for free, so I'm not sure if this is someone I helped build one or if they had the boards manufactured on their own. Either way, it's a bit frustrating. I haven't found myself in a position to have to enforce my own IP this way. <sigh> Well, here goes...

(I'm trying to do it by talking to the seller and asking them to take down the auction as opposed to just asking eBay themselves to cancel it.)

-Steve

[smashtv]

This is odd. I just noticed that someone is selling a MIDIbox SID (290153272206) which is based on one of my MIDIbox SID-NUXX PCBs.

Nothing odd about it, and this guy has done this before.

With the software used for the development of that PCB being non-profit I licensed the board design under the Creative Commons Non-Commercial license. That means he can't sell the board.

Time to file some paperwork with eBay to get the auction yanked.

I've contacted him via eBay as well as contacting the owner of the blog which pointed to the auction so I can try and get in touch with the seller directly.

Matrixsynth needs to pull that post and decide whether they are yet another anklebiter adwords spacer or a blog worth reading. 

The sellers name and address are in your pm inbox.  ;)

I sent a couple individuals spare PCBs for free, so I'm not sure if this is someone I helped build one or if they had the boards manufactured on their own.

I am curious about this too, please let me know.

(I'm trying to do it by talking to the seller and asking them to take down the auction as opposed to just asking eBay themselves to cancel it.)

-Steve

Take the few minutes and fill out the forms to kill the auction (eBay makes this pretty painless).  If you don't do this now it will just take more effort next time he does this.

When I confronted this person, he pretended to have no idea about the auctions, etc. 

Asking nicely at eBay matched the auction address with his though. 

Best regards

SmashTV

[c0nsumer]

I already replied to your PM, but I'm going to do it here as well just in case other people want to chime in.

Nothing odd about it, and this guy has done this before.

...

Time to file some paperwork with eBay to get the auction yanked.

That'll be happening first thing in the morning. For reference, the required form can be found here.

Matrixsynth needs to pull that post and decide whether they are yet another anklebiter adwords spacer or a blog worth reading.

Yeah, Matrixsynth posts some pretty... Adwords-grabbing things. Loads and loads of posts... I'm glad he posted this, though, because then I was able to see it.

The sellers name and address are in your pm inbox.  ;)

...

I sent a couple individuals spare PCBs for free, so I'm not sure if this is someone I helped build one or if they had the boards manufactured on their own.

I really appreciate that. It turns out he had emailed me asking for some help with it in the past. The subject of his message alluded to his having had the boards manufactured himself at PCBEXPRESS. I'm fairly certain that the couple people I sent boards to (two, if I remember right, one in southern California and one in Australia) actually completed their devices and regularly use them.

This guy really didn't seem to know what he was doing, saying that he was only seeing "all squares" on the LCD, asking if the PIC16F88 had to be programmed, and saying things like "I don't have smoke so at least nothing is burned out from a mistake or bad soldering."

Take the few minutes and fill out the forms to kill the auction (eBay makes this pretty painless).  If you don't do this now it will just take more effort next time he does this.

When I confronted this person, he pretended to have no idea about the auctions, etc. 

Asking nicely at eBay matched the auction address with his though.

Worst case I'll win the auction at whatever price is needed then sort it out with eBay corporate later. I've got the feedback to take a negative if it comes down to it.

Thanks again for your help with this... I'll be sure to post the results of it all here.

-Steve

[c0nsumer]

He just replied to my eBay question, so there's at least a line of communication open here. I made sure to also contact him at his personal address. We'll see where this all goes... Heh.

At least I'm not bored. :)

-Steve

[DrBunsen]

Might I just add, that's one ugly case.  He could have at least used the blue plexi on the front.

[kris]

  thats one ugly looking synth im surprised anybody wants to buy it

regards kris

[c0nsumer]

With all those flying wires he also destroyed the isolation (physical and via top/bottom ground planes) of the audio channels going to and from the 1/4" jacks. (Not that I imagine it helps much with the noisy as hell 6581, but I still designed the isolation in as best I could...)

[c0nsumer]

Paperwork was faxed to eBay at 08:59 EDT. It's now a bit over four hours later and I still haven't heard anything from them. Hopefully it'll get sorted out before the auction ends.

I'm tempted to win it at all costs and then just not pay, filing a dispute with eBay over it. However, I'm not sure how well that'll work out for me in the end.

[Wilba]

You get the first "dispute" against you completely ignored by eBay.

I had a stupid seller complain that I didn't buy one of two items in a multiple item auction. According to eBay rules, if I don't win all the items I want, I don't have to buy any, but "backing out" of the auction after it closed meant the seller had to pay fees. (Multiple item auctions are in general poorly run by eBay). I explained what was allowed by eBay but he raised a dispute against me anyway for not paying. I complained to eBay, and their default action is to just ignore the first dispute against someone rather than investigate it.

[c0nsumer]

You get the first "dispute" against you completely ignored by eBay.

I had a stupid seller complain that I didn't buy one of two items in a multiple item auction. According to eBay rules, if I don't win all the items I want, I don't have to buy any, but "backing out" of the auction after it closed meant the seller had to pay fees. (Multiple item auctions are in general poorly run by eBay). I explained what was allowed by eBay but he raised a dispute against me anyway for not paying. I complained to eBay, and their default action is to just ignore the first dispute against someone rather than investigate it.

Bah. Thanks for letting me know... My feedback is currently 194 or so, 100%. I'd rather not tarnish that... I guess I'll just have to wait and see if the IP dispute goes through. :\

[Davo]

If I'm reading this post and TK's licensing on Midibox, it's not permitted to sell Midibox equipment for a profit.  This started me wondering about liquidating Midibox equipment.  Suppose for whatever reason I decide to liquidate my equipment.  Shouldn't it be acceptable to sell the equipment for whatever price I can get for it?  I don't see how this would cause offense since the equipment was acquired to use, not to sell?  Now suppose I die and someone buys out my collection and sells off equipment not wanted.  It doesn't seem reasonable to restrict that buyer from reselling Midibox equipment.

So, in conclusion, it seems that manufacturing AND selling multiple units is bad.  It's okay to sell personal-use equipment.  With books, the rights of the publisher/manufacturer to affect resale end at the first sale.  In these two scenarios, the first sale (such as it is) has already passed.  Am I right?  If not, where am I wrong?

[stryd_one]

I think it's more simple than that. If you want to sell, you ask TK, and you abide by his decision :) Easy ;)

[c0nsumer]

Davo,

The problem with this auction is a bit more complex. On top of TK's IP (MIDIbox) there is my IP (MIDIbox SID-NUXX PCB design). The PCB in there is my board design which is not licensed for commercial resale, which I would define as for-profit resale on an open market like eBay. With the seller's history with the MIDIbox project and current price, that is most likely for profit. Looking at the parts he used and the quality of the construction, he's probably got about $50 - $80 into that project.

Additionally, the software I used to design the PCB (EAGLE) was purchased under a non-profit license which states that items designed with it must not be sold for profit. (I actually have a separate EAGLE Lite license for the commercial work I do, as thus far all that work has fit within the confines of it.)

If a group of people got together, grabbed my design and did a group buy based on it, I'd be quite happy about it and would probably offer them my support. This is completely different. He (Flavio, the seller) had actually emailed me at the beginning of August asking for help getting his board working. As typical when I find out that someone new is building a MIDIbox SID-NUXX design I was initially flattered, but he was really terse and seemed to demand support. I helped him a bit, then I never heard anything back. Now I find the device on eBay a couple weeks later.

What an ass.

-Steve

[smashtv]

If I'm reading this post and TK's licensing on Midibox, it's not permitted to sell Midibox equipment for a profit.

It's important to understand this is not the first (or even second) time this guy has done this.  There is no "personal use" in his intent.

This started me wondering about liquidating Midibox equipment.  Suppose for whatever reason I decide to liquidate my equipment.  Shouldn't it be acceptable to sell the equipment for whatever price I can get for it?  I don't see how this would cause offense since the equipment was acquired to use, not to sell?  Now suppose I die and someone buys out my collection and sells off equipment not wanted.  It doesn't seem reasonable to restrict that buyer from reselling Midibox equipment.

That's a slippery slope that ignores the spirit of this community.....What if I were to apply that logic to myself, and liquidate -my- collection of 'boxen? 

We are talking easily in the $100k usd range here, VS the $20k usd value of the separate parts that make up the boxes.  Do I deserve $80k just for building a design TK was kind enough to share with me?  No.

The intent here is to make something so cool and functional that people are driven to pick up the soldering iron and learn.  -Any- sale of a complete box (even for less than the price of the parts) ignores that idea.

So, in conclusion, it seems that manufacturing AND selling multiple units is bad.  It's okay to sell personal-use equipment.  With books, the rights of the publisher/manufacturer to affect resale end at the first sale.  In these two scenarios, the first sale (such as it is) has already passed.  Am I right?  If not, where am I wrong?

None of the usual laws or practices about first sale apply here.  Ignoring TK's intent (handing out a great reason learn electronics) is purely money driven, else any talk of 'liquidation' would be about used parts not boxes.

Best Regards

SmashTV

[c0nsumer]

~36 hours since faxing off the paperwork and nothing. I made sure it all went through, too...

It doesn't look like this is going to get pulled down, unless either SmashTV or TK already have things on file with eBay and can get it pulled.

[opkod]

how people can follow an auction at 132$ with this awfull synth....  it could be the price for the entire midibox nuxx poject but not this shittybox  :o

I would enjoy to make your nice project if I had your pcb (I already have a 6581r4ar for a midibox project or for a prophet 64)

_{I will write you by pm consumer, I have done a fatman and I'd like to ask for a few things about your project.}

[smashtv]

It doesn't look like this is going to get pulled down, unless either SmashTV or TK already have things on file with eBay and can get it pulled.

Now you see the issue with this type of quasi-fork with relicensing release method. 

You handed a layout over to the profiteers (with pure intent though, not trying to be critical of that) but since your site reads more like a fork than a 'here is what I built using TKs plan', I would have to take action against you for infringement via your release of a derivative work before I have any solid legal ground for making eBay pull the auction.

That said it's kinda on you now to step up if you really want something done about it.  This public thread has only served to push the bid price higher.    :-\

Best

Smash

[DavidBanner]

Consumer - just put a huge bid on the item, and refuse to pay when you win, reason: counterfeit goods.

What’s more important to you; your eBay reputation, or your midibox reputation and doing the right thing to fix a situation of your own making (albeit you were acting with good intentions and someone has used that to do evil)?

[c0nsumer]

Consumer - just put a huge bid on the item, and refuse to pay when you with as it's counterfeit goods.

What’s more important to you; your eBay reputation, or your midibox reputation and doing the right thing to fix a situation of your own making (albeit you were acting with good intentions and someone has used that to do evil)?

As discussed previously in this thread that would only serve to get me negative feedback.

My eBay reputation is more important, because anyone who sticks MIDIbox SID-NUXX into any search engine will see what the completed device is supposed to look like. I'm not worried about the MIDIbox reputation, I just want to stop this person from making money off of my work, which is (at least in part) the terms of the license I agreed to with the PCB CAD software purchase.

-Steve

[Wilba]

This mess is in part a result of you taking the MIDIbox IP and slapping another kind of non-commercial license on them and releasing the PCB layout files for all to make their own (including the profiteers of the world like Flavio). It has had the effect of diluting the MIDIbox-ness of this particular abomination of pine and persplex, as can be seen in the auction details:

This is basically this version sidbox

-SID NUXX

Instead of discretely getting this auction pulled and privately asking SmashTV and/or TK for support to back your claims to eBay, you've broadcast everything here on a public forum beginning with relating to us all "how odd" that some relative stranger to you has tried to profit off your work, and more importantly the collective work of everyone who freely contributed to MIDIbox SID in ideas, code and support, as if you had no idea that such things could happen.

I fail to see how you could not get eBay to kill this auction, but I was at least reassured you would take care of things regardless:

Worst case I'll win the auction at whatever price is needed then sort it out with eBay corporate later. I've got the feedback to take a negative if it comes down to it.

... until now I read:

My eBay reputation is more important, because anyone who sticks MIDIbox SID-NUXX into any search engine will see what the completed device is supposed to look like. I'm not worried about the MIDIbox reputation, I just want to stop this person from making money off of my work, which is (at least in part) the terms of the license I agreed to with the PCB CAD software purchase.

I don't get it.

You are now not going to "win the auction at whatever price is needed then sort it out with eBay corporate later" ?

Your eBay reputation is more important than your MIDIbox reputation?

You care more about people making money off "your work" and the terms of some PCB CAD software license than people making money off the the collective work of everyone who freely contributed to MIDIbox SID in ideas, code and support?

???

[bugfight]

wilba is dead right here.

c0nsumer, you said you would take care of it.

then wanted tk or smash to do it for you, like they

haven't spent enough of their time and effort.

it's time to man up and do what you said you would.

[c0nsumer]

wilba is dead right here.

c0nsumer, you said you would take care of it.

then wanted tk or smash to do it for you, like they

haven't spent enough of their time and effort.

it's time to man up and do what you said you would.

I tried to take care of it, and the win-at-all-costs option will not resolve it. It'll squash one auction and leave the seller with a box to re-list. I don't think it'll have any actual effect.

I did *not* say that I wanted either of them to take care of it. Please read what I said. I said that despite my filed dispute it does not look like it'll get taken care of unless either one of them do it. That does not not say that I wanted it done for me.

[stryd_one]

Create a bogus account. Problem solved.

[c0nsumer]

Create a bogus account. Problem solved.

Huh. Last time I went through the sign-up process a credit card was needed.

Well, that's all set. I'll try and stay up until the auction closes, but that'll be real late here.

[c0nsumer]

Yep, and my high bid just got yanked. I tried to create another, but now it's CC verification time again.

Bidding (obviously) can't be done under my actual username of 'c0nsumer' because as he and I have had contact via that account he'll cancel that. But, I'll bid anyway.