Creating traditional C64-style songs

[yatagarasu]

Background:

I have been using my MBSID V1 mostly for simple monophonic synth parts. I was interested in trying to compose some Rob Hubbard-style 3-voice chiptunes.

My approach so far is to use "split" to put the oscillators into 3 keyboard zones and use each of them to play a part in the song (drums + bass on osc 1, lead on osc 2, rhythm osc 3).

Problems:

My biggest challenge is setting the volume of each oscillator. I read in the Sid As A Drum Machine thread that you could set the Attack of an osc to 0 and then adjust the volume with the remaining envelope points. This creates a huge pop in front of each note. Is that just something the SID does in general?

Do I have to use the Wavetable to reset the volume registers?

Any answers to these questions, links to songs you have composed, or general tips on composing 3-channel songs with a single midibox and SID 6581 would be appreciated.

[TK.]

My biggest challenge is setting the volume of each oscillator. I read in the Sid As A Drum Machine thread that you could set the Attack of an osc to 0 and then adjust the volume with the remaining envelope points. This creates a huge pop in front of each note. Is that just something the SID does in general?

Yes, the ADSR will always raise the VCA to max volume before going into the decay phase. This causes the popping sound.

Do I have to use the Wavetable to reset the volume registers?

This doesn't really help. Regardless of which method you are using (e.g. clearing waveform register during attack phase), you will always hear unwanted artefacts. However, maybe the filter helps to lower the volume of certain channels.

Any answers to these questions, links to songs you have composed, or general tips on composing 3-channel songs with a single midibox and SID 6581 would be appreciated.

C64 composers had to fight with the same issues, there is no satisfying solution beside of recording and mixing the oscillators seperately, or using more than one SID

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[Smithy]

TK have you ever thought of supporting PCM playback in the Midibox Sid?

Im not sure how one could do this, maybe by uploading the PCM register code thingies via bank stick.

Totally a novelty but would be cool all the same!  :)

[TK.]

Why should I repeat something what I did 20 years ago?

-> http://utenti.lycos.it/ice00/HVMEC/CONTROL/Tracker/Soundwriter/v2.0/index.html

However, PCM playback has ultra-low priority - just for the case that I feel boring ;-)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[yatagarasu]

This doesn't really help. Regardless of which method you are using (e.g. clearing waveform register during attack phase), you will always hear unwanted artefacts. However, maybe the filter helps to lower the volume of certain channels.

Hey, that's fine, what's a SID track without some artifacts? =)

I just wanted to make sure I wasn't missing any important SID volume-control techniques. 

C64 composers had to fight with the same issues, there is no satisfying solution beside of recording and mixing the oscillators seperately, or using more than one SID

I like the idea of having to deal with the same issues as the original composers. I've found I'm most creative and productive when I am forced to push a single, multi-faceted unit to its limits. Thanks for your reply!

[Smithy]

Why should I repeat something what I did 20 years ago?

-> http://utenti.lycos.it/ice00/HVMEC/CONTROL/Tracker/Soundwriter/v2.0/index.html

Jesus!  :o

[nILS]

Why should I repeat something what I did 20 years ago?

-> http://utenti.lycos.it/ice00/HVMEC/CONTROL/Tracker/Soundwriter/v2.0/index.html

Oh, man...  ;D

[yatagarasu]

Alright, I made a gamey/dancey track in the TASK 3 vein using the 3 oscillators as bass/lead/rhythm respectively, and copped out and used an Airbase99 for drums ;) PM me tah hear.

I am currently messing with using the wavetable to combine the bass and drums into one channel. So far here's what I have for causing a saw bass notes to sound like they're hitting at the same time as a kick:

param 1: osc 1 wave form

param 2: LFO Pitch assign for osc 1 on/off

param 3: (unused)

Step 1: Triangle, lfo on

Step 2: Saw, lfo off

Step 3:

Step 4: end

I need to build a bank stick and so that I can swap out wavetable patches for when I need the bass to hit at the same time as a snare.

[bill]

to create traditional C64 music, i strongly suggest to use a c64, with a soundtracker.

To my knowledge, the most advanced C64 tracker is JCH. ( but i did not try Tk soundwriter yet ;) )

http://microkit.free.fr/?rep=./C64/Trackers/JCH_MusicEditor

but if you have no c64, or dont want to use it, try goat tracker :

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/GoatTracker

http://covertbitops.c64.org/

[yatagarasu]

At some point I would like to create some C64 music on the machine itself. Those trackers you recommended are a great start.

I'd  actually like to find a nice midi tracker with CC#s assignable to columns. This would be useful for all the midi gear I use. 

What drew me to the midibox was the fact that I could perform songs live with just my QY100 midi sequencer. Also I can sync it with my drum machines and other modern and retro synths. Imagine a live SID performance mutating seamlessly into a live NES performance with nothing but 3 boxes, a router and a sound system. 

I really want to incorporate classic sid-sounds with idiosyncratic and post-modern music production methods. While I love the 6501 stuff and tracker stuff, I would like to find a unique approach that will force bleeding fresh perspectives on SID music production. With TK and you other gurus fielding my baby questions, the future looks very bright =D

[aeiou42]

I think Renoise might do what you want.

http://www.renoise.com/

I'm not sure myself... I'm currently learning how trackers work.

[yatagarasu]

Renoise! Wow! As a midi sequencer it's absolutely dreamy! 

I am looking into getting a new commodore to mess with, but I'm excited about writing my own wave tables using renoise at a fast tempo!

edit: removed stupid question

[nILS]

Songs & Sounds: http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php?board=13.0

I used to work with GoatTracker a lot - it's a nice C64 tracker :D

[yatagarasu]

Can't I edit Wavetable parameters using Sysex while a track is playing?

For example, can I have the Wavetable playing a tight kick sound on the "1" beat, and then between "1" and "2" send Sysex for all the parameters of a Monty snare sound which will hit on "2"? 

Will this clog the midi pipeline? I tried it in Jsynthlib (forwarded to midi yoke), and it worked ok for changing single WT parameters. But changing all of them between beats might be a stretch. Any ideas?

[TK.]

In MBSID V1, wavetables were only stored in EEPROM due to limited RAM of PIC18F452. And writing into an EEPROM takes a lot of time - you can calculate ca. 2 mS per byte. For 128 bytes this makes 256 mS!

However, there is a simple solution which has been integrated for this purpose: use CC#12 to change to another Wavetable which is already stored in BankStick.

This CC gives you --> ZERO LATENCY <-- access to up to 128 wavetables per bank! :-)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[cavey]

hmmmmmmm

why can't I find soundwriter in the release database of CSDB? (http://noname.c64.org/csdb, where all serious sceners convene :P)

[yatagarasu]

What are you talking about Cavey? Sorry, I'm a little light on the scene lingo =)

I made my first SID-only track using renoise. Anyone else done anything like this?

[nILS]

If you're talking about C64-style music: yes ;-) It's posted somehwere around here I believe. Ha, found it: http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php/topic,9751.0.html

[yatagarasu]

I meant C64 style stuff using MidiBox SIDs with a single chip =D

Nice tracks, btw, your instrumental/synth skills are pretty impressive.

[cavey]

What are you talking about Cavey? Sorry, I'm a little light on the scene lingo =)

I made my first SID-only track using renoise. Anyone else done anything like this?

sorry about that :) I was just reading up a bit in various threads and saw soundwriter mentioned here so I looked it up in the commodore 64 scene database, and soundwriter hasn't been added yet to the database.