dengel

Then I'll set about learning Eagle. Anyone have any advice on board fabrication outsourcing for the PCB boards?

Adrian, thanks for the Heads up! Appreciate it - I was going to have them etch the board for me, but perhaps now I will reconsider that route. Without the boards, though, there would be 162 wires to solder, and at my current skill level this isn't tenable :(, so I have to find a solution. I saw one guy that used Photoshop to screen cap things from expressPCB, reversed the image, and etched his own but this seems a bit overboard. If ExpressPCB isn't a good choice, do you guys have suggestions about what software and service to use? I'll check out Eagle, anything else I might look for? Don.

Curiousity, Stryd - What does this mean? ??? ;). The idea is to go away from a keyboard completely, by using the core of a USB KB to do all the momentaries with new buttons. This is because I have so many buttons that a MB64 won't handle them all, and I don't want to dual core for just 30 buttons. Essentially, I have to build new pathways for rewiring the KB buttons (similar to what many MAME cabinet folks do), because they all have the membrane style switches nowadays. Once I figure out vias in ExpressPCB, I think the problem will mostly go away, because then I can overlap traces in the third dimension. On a 2-d plane, it isn't possible. Eventually, a1 through b13 will all get boiled down to a single wire-hole for each number, which will then connect to the corresponding holes on the KB core (diodes will be used to reduce KB ghosting issues that might arise). I am just trying to not end up with a rat nest of wires, so that the thing is serviceable.

Hey, Katch! I'm also working on an Ableton controller. One thing that I'm wondering is how you intend to launch clips with the arrangement shown? Perhaps I have been using Ableton wrong all this time? :) I see what looks like a single momentary over the fader channels - do you program everything into scenes? If so, do you use Ableton in a live setting much? I know of some ableton DJs that use a "MegaSet" and replace scenes by using the mouse. Just interested how you personally get around the inability to load new live sets on the fly W/O stopping audio?

This is the pin header assignment diagram for the 7 button group headers. I'm having a bear soldering these things, I'll tell you. Trying to make a PCB but I'm having issues with trace overlap. EDIT: The upper right mappings in the drawing are wrong - those are meant to be the scene triggers, but I forgot to label them properly in the schematic.I'll replace it when I fix it...

Nope! New one has been re-listed, Stryd! http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7405107592 Don.

SmashTV, I don't know you, but I sure do appreciate you! I am eagerly awaiting the opening of the store as well to buy my materials for the m64. In the meantime, I will continue to practice my soldering skills (chicks dig guys with skills) and await the day when I can move forward on my project. Don't stress too much, either. No matter how long it takes you, it is likely still much shorter than it would take me to learn the skills, buy the materials, develop the traces, and prep the boards myself. Sincerely, Don.

Nope, I've never scratched with it - or much else, for that matter! When I fist got into DJ'ing, I determined quite quickkly that scratching just wasn't my bag. Like Piano, drums, and guitar it requires hand independence, which I do not have even the slightest talent for. I tried to learn Bass for about 6 months, and I just couldn't get hand A to do anything different than hand B. Turned out that I was good with beatmatching, and I liked the progressive stuff more anyway, so that's what I've been specializing in for my DJ "career". I've used 3 decks in tractor, never bothered with 4 since (techno/ minimal/electro excepted) It's hard to find 3 records that sound good together, let alone 4! I have the third deck set up to do samples and the like, and not much else. Sorry, missed the drill part in the post. Prototype - ain't that the truth!

The backlight solution is really nice. Sort of similar to what I'm doing, but with discrete rather than global backlighting. Good show. Why did you put the fourth channel's headphone/xfader assigns out of line with the others? Seems like moving that green button somewhere else would be a better option than putting it so close to the channel fader where it might get bumped. Come to think of it, aren't you concerned that the button positions will lead you to hit them during scratching manouvers? In any case, it's already better than the only commercial traktor controller (the hercules POS) and the fact that It's so far along is great.

Beautiful, man. Really, really fine work. I've started soldering up the keyboard switches on my Ableton project, so hopefully I'll have stuff to show after the weekend. Question about the blue ring around the controller, bottom left - how did you achieve the ring lighting? Is it a commercial part that I haven't seen or did you custom make it? Also - I thought the Quattro was a USB card, or have you performed some kind of PCI to USB conversion? I'm still SC shopping for my project, but running off a laptop all I have seen in the way of using PCI cards is to use a very expensive PCMCIA solution. Or maybe you just took the USB enclosure off of a regular quattro? Do Tell! Congrats again. With you on the dark faceplate thing - never did understand why mixers are always designed to be invisible in the dark!

To get back on track - Neat Keyboard emulator boards, and fairly cheap at $69. http://www.vetra.com/312txt.html But using a utility like Keyhook or Keyscan (my personal preference) is the way to go if you have some time and want to be cheap about it. I have begun the laborious mapping of the LiteON SK8115 keyboard matrix, and will post a PDF of the mappings when I am complete. Not all keyboards use the same mappings, though - I chose the SK8115 because it is cheap and widely available. But really, any USB keyboard will do.

Well, then - we are in total agreement. But the point to get to the heart of the project has not yet come. Here's why: 1) I am still learning basic concepts of electronics and soldering, etc. 2) I want to buy the parts from Smash TV, and his aren't yet ready 3) I am working concurrently on several aspects of the project, which I am approaching the way I would any new project. I even have a gant chart for it, silly enough. For instance, I have friends that do CNC work, and have offered to help with the panel face. The sooner I get it to them, the more time they'll have to take on my charity case(no pun intended, but there it is :D ). 4) As I am sure you have found, sourcing components can be tough. I am VERY particular with my performance equipment, and will spend hours upon hours just deciding on knob shape, for instance. This takes time, but is otherwise free. 5) MONEY. It's always the rub! :P Eventually the heart needs to be built, and while my description of the build process was a massive oversimplification (I lurked enough to know that) it doesn't change the fact that with methodical progress, the Core is a known construct that WILL get built. I'm not really doing anything insane with it - just a bunch of pots leading back to the core and its associated child modules. But I won't play around with a $150bux+ of parts without first training myself in basic electronics knowledge. That would be pretty wasteful of my strapped budget. Anyway, i've been a DJ'ing in clubs for 5 years. I know that the design I made (while not perfect) will definitely fit my requirements, which are pretty narrow really. My main concerns (keyboard hack, m64 capabilities/limitations, and power supply and drain) have been answered wonderfully by experimentation, Moebius and TK. The rest really is just a matter of applying principles thankfully discovered and shared by all the awesome people here in these forums. Hopefully, I can make my own contribution when the "enabler" is finished, althogh I believe that contribution will be in good documentation/plans and not in the electronic realm- just too little that I know there to be much help to anyone.

No offense taken. Well, actually - building the box first IS putting the cart before the horse. I had no doubt after seeing other people's impressive and completed projects that with the effort spent, I could "follow the recipe" and wire up some knobs as well. I wasn't quite sure how to make it functional, cheap, and unique though. That's where this thread came in. I'm a designer by trade, web specifically, and the first thing with any interface is that you first have to identify what the interface is for, then define requirements, then you determine what resources, materials, and technologies fit the needs and the budget, then you decide what your technologies will be, then you plan your interface - a few times - and THEN you begin construction. The concepting is a part that eventually HAS to be done, and I can't get an idea of my eventual project costs/time until that stage is complete. The midibox core requires no concepting - you buy it, build it, solder your pots, program if needed, and go. So, it makes more sense to design your idea fully in the mind first, then start your assembly - that is, if there is a goal in mind and not just a box with random knobs on it ;) Let's say I had built the midibox first, and then found out it couldn't do what I needed, or that I couldn't fit what I needed into a space suitable for my needs? Then I wasted time AND money. In addition, since I am new to this, I have a lot to learn about electronics, and that learning is best done BEFORE I spend money, not after. Also, The store for Midibox stuff isn't back up yet :(. I have begun the circutry for the keyboard bit, because that was easier to "get" and because if I couldn't make that work then the project wouldn't even get started. I am happy to say that it works as well as I hoped, and that if I could play Ableton on keys A,a,B,b, and C,c then I'd be done! ;D

Funny how important prototyping can be... I made a full size mockup in Illustrator today and took it to my local electronic shop, where I used it to place the various panel components on it and see if the distances and such were adequate. Thanks to that trip, I have completed the top panel design and ergonomics, and am happy to say that I got my 6th channel back! The grey rings in the image are the 2.5mm "light rings" around each component. To simplify the construction of the upper sample trigger columns, I have simplified and encircled them in a single light box, rather than a light box around each button. This saved me 40mm of vertical space or so, which as you can see is at a premium (there's some differences in the BW image, which made some small changes to the layout and added two pots on send 2 that I forgot in the first drawing) The purple buttons are the cue/xfader assign buttons, and the red are the channel start/stops. All the knobs on the channels are the EQs and effects sends. the big 25mm boxes are going to be joystick pots. I am keeping the same "Tron" look. I am sourcing the people that will affix the vinyl backing to the topsheet/panel, and then it's off to the cutter! The only thing I am worried of is how I am going to cut the fader channel holes so they look great. I might have to get a local machine shop to do it with CNC or laser for it to look good. buttons and rotaries are much easier, as the knob covers the hole.

This is the best assortment of good looking knobs I have ever seen. For instance, check the machined aluminum ones: http://www.ehcknobs.com/selector/index.php?series=101&action=step5&group=PVL They can be found in North America here: www.newarkinone.com I just chose that site because it was easy to use, EHC lists other distributors as well.

Moebius, your explanations are wonderful. Much thanks to you. :D Any idea of what the power draw is of the core module for the m64? I have access to (at my local EPO) regulated PSU's rather than the standard noisy wall-warts. Would any extra safety be gained by using both the regulator on the board and the regulated 5v/1amp PSU? This is for Live use, so I am interested in making things as robust as I can, within economic reason.

Thank you, Moebius! Yeah, That's sort of what I meant. I won't be installing an LCD (the controller is customized for one program (ableton) and the LCD just isn't necessary. What I should have said: Ohm's law (which I've been learning a bit about) seems to fit the bill. So, the core voltage of the m64 core is 5 volts, meaning each 1k pot draws 5//1000th of an amp, which is then multiplied by the number of pots to yield the total power draw of ALL the pots combined. If 190mA is high, what TOTAL mA draw should I be shooting for to be safe for the core? For instance, the 10K pots will be (5v/10kohm=0.0005)*10 pots= .005 amps per pot = 5mA total drain for all ten linear pots, right? so, the entire amperage of my system is 195 mA, correct? How might I use this information to determine the requirements of my power supply wall-wart? I suppose I need a PSU that is capable of 5volts/200mA? If so, is any PSU that can provide that power of greater acceptable, or can I overdo the mA's and burn stuff out? Below the 195 ma stuff just won't turn on, right? I apologize if these are rather elementary questions - I just can't afford to get things wrong and A) buy useless equipment B) burn something up :o. Have you guys seen a thread that goes over ways to protect the core? (I assume that is what the regulator tower thing does)? Man, feeling stupid when learning totally new things is fun! Don.

Thanks, Mike! yeah, the eventual goal is to get it all set up as a project tutorial. Documenting things along the way ensures that I don't make as many mistakes in building things... I am certainly in possesion of all these files.

Thanks, Moebius! It's my understanding that the pots have to be 10k - is that accurate? I found a great 1k micro rotary pot that is PERFECT for my install, which as pressed for space as I am would be great if I could use it. Power dissipation at 12 volts is .012 watts. I am very very new to electrical circuits, so I guess what I am wondering is if these 1K linear roto-pots could be used for knobwork (like to control EQ settings, params, whatever) in a midibox 64? I don't want to burn things out. EDIT: a search for 1K pots on the forums gives me the answer: They will work then, but now I have to figure out if power consumption would be OK. I want to have the following: 10 x 10k linear slide pots 38 x 1k rotary pots Any idea of what formulas I need to use to determine if the voltage of the midibox64 can control that many knobs? (BTW, in midi HUI section you can see the controller I am building).

Well, here is the panel design. I'm trying to get the panel to scale, and I am a bit worried about fitting it all into 8U. Time to go buy some knobs at EPO and start laying out parts on a desk to see if I can get the ergonomics right. EDIT: Well, I mocked up a full size 8u panel today using paper bits. Bad news is, only 5 channels will fit on the board and still be open enough to avoid keypress confusion. I lose 8 samples, but that isn't so bad. I also reduce the number of pots required by 6 and minus out 11 buttons. That gives me some extra buttons to assign to FX params! yey. Edit Again - after building a computerized scale mockup, I got my 6th channel back! See a couple posts down. Photos to come of the mock up board, and the scale template tomorrow.

Any idea if these faders would do the job for the volume faders on a m64 unit? http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=7585600419&rd=1&sspagename=STRK%3AMEWA%3AIT&rd=1#ebayphotohosting http://www.nobleusa.com/slide.html They are dual function, but I could just hook up one set of the contacts, right? Anyone have any experience with Noble's stuff? Also - Plastic vs. Metal slider posts: which would you choose for MIDIBox application?

Thanks! I am a graphic designer by trade - so this is all Illustrator, CS2 to be exact. "enABLEer" for ableton - get it? it "enables" one to use ableton live... I finished the testing of the backlight today, and witha couple tweaks it will work like a charm. I'll be posting up a front panel basic assembly concept tomorrow.

OK, I am now in possesion of my panel building materials. I bought a small piece of lexan to test the concept on - I'll be doing that today. I'll take pictures, and post the results. I guess a Wiki start is in order... Also, here is the keymap PDF for perusal: http://rapidshare.de/files/16499781/keymapping-enabler.pdf.html and a default set in Ableton ALS format, with all the keymappings in place (this set's keymap will NOT make any sense w/o this controller, btw - I don't suggest you set these as the default set in Ableton unless you plan on building this controller too ;) ). http://rapidshare.de/files/16505620/template.als.html New layout and ergonomics. All colors have a coded function. Green makes clips go, duotone sends to Xfader, blue affects the volumes of a the track in a row, Purple sends to headphones, yellow and orange send to...well, the sends (yel 1 , or 2). White is the master controls. Missing from this drawing are the global stop, start, and record which will be white and will be the only non-round button shapes - they will look like transport images.

First, the project has a logo and a name now: Today's update: I'm going to mount the panel in this SKB case, which will give me a portable solution for tabletop use (although the panel could still be removed and mounted in any standard DJ rack). It is 8u(14in) by 19", which should be big enough. I have changed my mind on the white surface - black is easier to find parts for, and will increase contrast in the dark (where I will play most of the time anyway) with my gelled backlight idea. At the bottom of the case I will mount 2 HD USB2 cages on top of foam pads, which I will mirror my sets on for backup in case of failure. The panel and the circuits for the midi I plan on mounting in their own box, with the panel connections for the pots wired into some kind of quick-release mechanism. Finally, a few cold-cathodes will provide essentially heatless backlighting for the panel. Today's mission - seek out some lexan to test the panel ideas and see if they are feasible. The keyboard controls will stay with the panel, and the panel will be connected to the laptop via the simgle USB channel. Toyed also with the idea of a capacitance touchscreen kit, like here at: http://www.touchscreens.com/products-addon.html with a static array of buttons that are backlit - it would save a LOT of wiring, eliminate a ton of construction time, and look cool as hell. The only drawback - only one sample can be fired at a time. Trying to decide if I care, since this is mostly for DJ mixing - as long as I can fire the samples within 4 beats, I won't miss my marks. Plus, I'd get 3 million presses or more per "key". Thoughts? BTW, I got a great deal at EPOhouston.com (my local electronics supplier) on 45mm Japanese-made faders. They aren't ALPS, but seem to be pretty good quality and are only $2 US apiece, new in bags and feel as good as the faders on some midrange mixers I have played on. I plan on using these as volume faders; they are linear 10Kohm - this should work OK, right? The slide pots had center detents, which were easy enough to remove by dissasembling and removing the tiny ball bearing and spring the engaged the center position. Now they are nice, smooth, and continuous. Pay_C, I agree on the EQ Knobs - I just sorta ran out of vertical room. Since deciding to go to 8U high, I have room now to move them above the faders (horizontally) where they belong.

Total Inputs: 38 Rotary Pots 10 Linear Pots (9 channels, 1 xfader) 2 Joysticks 99 (yes, 99!) buttons. New panel layout: explanation a few posts down. Here's the kicker - I am trying something new. I am going to use a hacked USB keyboard for the buttons and send all my on-off triggers via keyboard mappings. This means it will be a hybrid device, but for the cost of a free-ninety-nine keyboard, I have all my on-off triggers taken care of. There will be some oddities there - for instance, even though it can't be done from a standard keyboard, some buttons will have the shift key wired permanently to them (so I can map a and A, for example) I am not sure yet what will happen if I press both of these at the same time, so I still have to test that. The way I use live, though, I see that as an infrequent problem at most. I even worked out a way to get the joysticks to control the effects sends via game-to-midi using ReJoice and MidiYoke/MIdiOX - but that solution can't get me the number of pots that I need (52 total Axes). At least I don't think it can - anyone know of anyone who has made a game controller with Tons-o-axes? In any case, I would worry about playing out with that setup :D but I'd like to know for curiosity's sake! Hence, I am here. It looks like I can get away with just one Midibox64 for my layout above (not yet to scale, BTW, but I am envisioning a 19"x10" or 12" panel). Does that seem right? I am a total midi-building newbie - I just want to know what I am going to need to get this project done right. Oh, and the case - I am doing something neat there too, I hope. A plexi top panel,frosted. one the back of the panel, I will put an opaque material, and then cut around the components so that light can shine through those spots. Inside the case will be white cold cathode tubes to provide a backlight around the components. Then, I will tint these areas, creating a frosty colored glow surrounding each component that is color coded to the components function. I'll photoshop something so that makes more sense... Or maybe that is an old-hat idea that you guys have seen a million times. :-\ Because of that, I am going to make as many of the board components white - buttons-knobs, etc - as I can. Also, while some items in the diagram are square, most buttons will be actually be round when it is all completed. Lastly, users of Live might notice that I have only done a single send on the effects channels. That is just because the feedback loop from sending an effect to itself is just a little dicey to me, and when playing live at a gig might be a danger. I am transmuting to all digital after 5 years as a club-playing vinyl jock. After this, I might make a Traktor control as well - although Behringer is coming out with the BCDJ2000 in mid April 06, so that might be suitable. But a matching custom control would look SO SWEET! Thoughts? Warnings? Ideas? Newbie Don.