Real instruments vs computer/VST

[wicked1]

I continue building real synths, while most of my friends have been getting rid of anything real and moving to all computer based music. Records are gone in favor of traktor, effects, filters, etc, are all gone in favor of digital plug-ins. Synths and sequencers are gone. I personally love my gear and honestly, it sounds better. But does it matter?

People don't seem to care that my analog filter sounds a bit better than their VST. They don't notice the thin-ness or aliasing of their digital synths.. they just know it's playing the basic notes and general sound they're going for, and that's good enough.

Now it's getting to the point where it's hard to work w/ guys who used to be basically studio partners.. I look at their screens w/ a blank stare, and they're completely intimidated by my mass of cables and faders and knobs.

It's also getting sad, because instead of the usual excitement when I bring out a new instrument, now all I get is "well, couldn't you just model that?" "Wouldn't it be easier to set up if you just had to load your program" and most recently when I built a new filter, "why do you bother when you can just download a vst".

I think it's sad... The big down side I see to computers, other than the audio quality, is the loss of the band feel. Trying to "jam" w/ people on their ipads is sort of lame... They just pick out pre-recorded (or pre-sequenced) music and press play.. No live, in the heat of the moment tweaks or anything.........

Owell.. end of an era, I guess. I'm wondering if I'm the only one bothered by it..

[taximan]

I am in total agreement with you,kraftwerk for example make great tunes but there concerts are boring.......just 4 guys pushing buttons.

A live band playing real instruments can put expression into things and interact with the audience........much better concerts to attend.

Or............are we all just getting old?

cheers

Paul

[Imp]

I think the main problem with jamming on electronic devices is that you don't need the other guys.

Back in the days everyone had a certain role in a Band, today you could do everything on your own.

There are different ways to deal with that:

a) Do it on your own, try to look fancy pushing buttons and twisting knobs

b) Play one of those roles, but use electronic equipment

c) Have enough electronic or human show-elements, so nobody realizes you are still only pushing buttons

I chose d) make equipment, skip performance, occasionally show stuff i made to friends :whistle:

[Hawkeye]

wicked1, totally agreed, it is a shame to see even "synth legends" fall back to vsts... personally i cannot stand the "unknobness" of an ipad, however good the software behind it may sound :) .

Also, the real hardware with blinking lights and things to twist is a lot more inspiring than pushing a mouse over a desktop. I´ve given up Ableton for a MBSeq V4 and don´t look back...

Methinks, that is what MIDIbox is for, to be able to create hardware for something you really want to control with your fingers, to celebrate the old times, and to combine with everything new :).

Bye,

Peter

Edited May 29, 2012 by Hawkeye

[jojjelito]

I'm partly with Mr Hawkeye here. I love editing some of my complicated synths on the iPad as it still beats the menu plus real tine LCD, but sometimes I long for tactile buttons. Sometime far off in the future I'll build a controller for the FS1r with real knobs... It will be the size of Antarctica but that's life!

Some concerts these days become more of glorified DJ performances. That's a bit odd, but as long as the main thing here is performance it can be good.

[nILS]

In short:

a) I don't care where the sound comes from. At all.

b) Knobs, Faders, Buttons are vital.

[Hawkeye]

Ok, agreed, if it is not a real analogue synth, in the end it is all software, no matter if executed on an audio DSP or an Intel CPU.

I recently tested the OP-X VST (Oberheim Emulator) and must say, holy cow, it does sound nice!

With proper MIDIbox knobs and keys and a VST host that quickly boots and needs no keyboard or mouse interaction to get it running, this would be nice!

Is anyone aware of such a solution, that does not cost thousands of dollars and does need no monitor/mouse for startup and normal operation?

Edited June 1, 2012 by Hawkeye

[nILS]

There's VST host demo projects with source code for pretty much any programming language available. Take that, add an "auto load $x" and you're done.

IIRC I used this one a while back: http://www.hermannseib.com/english/vsthost.htm Doesn't do anything fancy, but it works. TobyBear's MINIhost was pretty simplistic as well, energyXT is what I use a lot for testing things.

There ya go, pick your poison ;)

[Hawkeye]

Thanks :)

[wicked1]

Thanks for the replies! Looks like we're all mostly in agreement on the performance side of things.. Personally, I relate most to what hawkeye said about the gear being inspiring.. Stare at a particular instrument w/ a certain knob and light layout for long enough, and it affects you... The way you play and interact w/ the gear changes the music. I can't even get in to using a midi controller keyboard and having it set up for all my gear... I'd rather hop back and forth between each box.

And to what IMP said, about not needing the band.. That's true in a way, but composing music alone is completely different than jamming w/ friends. That's another disturbing aspect to modern music, to me. Looking back on all my favorite electronic music, most of it is a collaboration. Even just the flat out techno acts I like were at least 2 guys working together. Working alone, the music is just about you and your world.. If you have even one other person as a bit of a filter and different look on things, it will make the music accessible to that many more people.

But, how about the sound quality aspect? I got in to building hi-fi amplifiers several years ago, and it has ruined me, in a way. I listen for distortion in everything now, and it is there! So to me, I can almost always hear a difference between record and mp3, vst and real analog gear. But to most now days, it seems they don't care. 96k mp3 is the same as analog vinyl to them.. they still hear the notes and beats. So, if that's the case, why bother? Like nILS says, then it's all just software. Why build a sid or real mb FM? Why build filters or 909/808 clones? (Obviously around here, it's because it's our hobby.... but is it worth bothering for the sake of music production? Hopefully people like some of us will always think it is :) )

[technobreath]

I love viritual synths :). And it is like hawk says, in the end it is all software. I also love real analog synths, but there are limitations to those also.

I think that this has a lot to do with that one accepts that digital sounds this way and analog sounds that way. None of them need to be bad, and both can be bad. Goes for viritual stuff also.

I don't fancy button/key-less concerts / gigs myself. If I play a vst instrument on a gig (I mostly do that in one way or another) I need to have some knobs to control it with. It would be too much work to use mouse / keyboard for everything - and a mouse / keyboard isn't a very intuitive musical controller either.

Viritual instruments has also played a huge part in opening up the world of pro music to amateurs all around, and that is a very good thing. If u look at the big picture, not many can afford the all-hardware route, and almost none is capable of building their own. So in the end, I think the easy availability and cheapness of viritual instruments is a very good thing.

I think that everyone should accept that there is different ways of making music, and in the end, all of those ways are valuable for the musician and their respective audiences, even the glorified DJ sessions :). And when people say "couldn't you just model that?" or similar, the proper answer should be that emulation may be right for you, and that is cool, but I need the real thing to do my thing as a musician. Just a thought, yeah...?

In the end, viritual stuff can sound really really good. And to be blunt :) I understand that viritual instrument guys put the claws out if they get it in the face that their stuff which they use and love, isn't good enough, because of some inferior flaws that doesn't mean anything to them (it doesn't mean that they don't know about it, they just don't think it's important to get rid of). Same goes for the other way around :).

That was just my thoughts :).

BTW. I foresee that when the iHype is gone, hehe, there arise a new holy war :P.

[shimoda]

I think the comment above about many instruments being digital whether on a PC/Mac/Linux 'VST' or on a DSP chip in a piece of hardware is something that often gets lost in this conversation. One difference is that our current capabilities for modeling or creating/manipulating sound are vastly different from years ago. Notice I say vastly different, not necessarily better. Personally, I think in many ways they are better. However it depends on the functionality one is seeking.

I like VSTs because of the choices. From a true hearing standpoint, the human ear is capable of great accuracy to a degree. Many of the differences we think we hear are psychological. That said, some people with a history of careful listening really can pick up on differences. Whatever we grow up with is what we often emotionally relate to and that is what we often desire. Growing up in the hybrid analog/digital world I can appreciate both sides of this argument.

I'm so much of a throwback for my love of electromechanical instruments but I think it has as much to do with my purely mechanical/electrical interest as the beauty of their sound. SImilarly, some sounds digitally created are absolutely beautiful but even they relate back to soundwaves. Here is the ultimate point of all of this. In the end, every sound we produce is analog in that is heard through our ears which are not digitally interpreting the sound but instead are receiving and interpreting a constant, continuous stream of fluctuating data. Whether the sound is produced on a Moog/Oberheim/Roland from the 70s or 80s or an Arturia/NI/Insert VST here, they come to our ears as waves, beautiful analog waves.

[rosch]

i've experienced the other direction. a band mate who always was a great abletonist is buying analogue synthesizers now and even wants to get rid of his mac, which i never would have imagined. i think it has to do with what you're used to. when people grow up with mp3 it's no wonder that they think it's good enough. there's also no point in hooking a record player to the typical new garbage 'amps' that are made for this quality, it's instant mp3 too.

but like that guy, so he's getting used to a different sound and over time he probably realizes that his stuff doesn't match a setup that's entirely tube amps and analogue gear (apart from the digital / hybrid synths i'm carrying in there, and i notice it too with my DCOs hehe)