YM2612 versus OPL3 (MEGADRIVE PATCHES!!!)

[Jaicen]

I'm wondering if anybody has any experience with the YM2612 chip (as used in the Sega Genesis\Megadrive etc).

Supposedly it's quite similar to the DX series of synths by yamaha, even sharing some patches.

I have a DX27, but it doesn't really sound like my old Megadrive. I really like the way that used to sound, it was the first step up from my C64 which I love almost as much.

There are two things i'd like to know really; how similar is the OPL3 to the YM2612, and where do I go about searching for patches from old Megadrive games?? (I NEEEEEED that Marble Zone sound ;) ) I actually have an old soundcard with an OPL3 chip on it I think, need to look it out to see.

Is the MidiBox FM that much different than a DX27?? (spec seems roughly similar).

[TK.]

Is the MidiBox FM that much different than a DX27?? (spec seems roughly similar).

Does the DX27 support a "wavetable sequencer" (for sequencing CC parameters) and analog CV outputs for controlling external filters, etc.?

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[Jaicen]

I think you mis-understand, I wasn't having a poke.

By 'that much different' I meant in terms of sound generating capabilities, since they're both four op FM synths, though obviously the MBFM has better control capabilities.

I guess I was just wondering if it was actually worth building a MBFM when I already have a DX27 (which I bought to use as a controller). Does it produce those wonderful megadrive tones, or is it a different beast altogether?

[moebius]

Hi.

MBFM might be a different beast altogether - but it´s much closer to the sound generating capabilities of the Megadrive than DX27. And TK already pointed out what's the difference: Wavetable sequencer.

The DX has static programmed sounds with a few realtime modulation capabilities: generate a sound and play the notes. On the (old) game consoles music programmers had their share of the CPU time and ability to modify even all the parameters of the sound on one pass. The Wavetable sequencer in MBFM gives you the ability to modify CC parameters on the fly. It's of course not as powerful as directly programming chip register, but it's still useful.

Moebius

[Jaicen]

I see! Guess i'd better start looking into this a little more then.

[Jaicen]

Hey guys, I think i've found a way to extract information about what each operator in a megadrive game is doing, check it out:

http://home.hiwaay.net/~kbanks/YMDUMP.ZIP

I'll let you know how it works later.

[Artesia]

hmm... okay... guess im not the only one obsessed with the sounds of the megadrive...

time for much reverse engineering...

i'll be placing my bets that it is indeed possible to get a ymf-262 to spit out those 'sonic' sounds ;)

..although i do know that some degree of sample playback was used too..

bet the secret lies in the use of a software wavetable - much like thronsten's.. ever heard the sound artifacts when sonic stalls ? ...would seem to point in that direction from what i understand.

i guess we should kidnap sega's sound designer & extract his secrets.. with water drip torture if nessursary ;)

[cheater]

hmm... okay... guess im not the only one obsessed with the sounds of the megadrive...

obsessive reporting

;D

time for much reverse engineering...

i'll be placing my bets that it is indeed possible to get a ymf-262 to spit out those 'sonic' sounds ;)

..although i do know that some degree of sample playback was used too..

sample playback can be easily heard in the MD, I think it's all only 8-bit samples at no more than 32 kHz (just a rough guess)

bet the secret lies in the use of a software wavetable - much like thronsten's.. ever heard the sound artifacts when sonic stalls ? ...would seem to point in that direction from what i understand.

i guess we should kidnap sega's sound designer & extract his secrets.. with water drip torture if nessursary ;)

...water drip torture? :)

[OrganGrinder]

...water drip torture?

yea, any nerd worth his/her salt knows of the water drip torture.  8)

[Jaicen]

It seems this thread stalled at about the same time my investigations did. I managed to extract some of the patches from the game (sonic), but they had no resemblance to the sounds at all, so that was a bit of a dead end. I think I need to either find someone who knows how the game programmed the sounds, or look up the tech details for how the MD accesses the chip and see what I can find out.

[cheater]

It seems this thread stalled at about the same time my investigations did. I managed to extract some of the patches from the game (sonic), but they had no resemblance to the sounds at all, so that was a bit of a dead end. I think I need to either find someone who knows how the game programmed the sounds, or look up the tech details for how the MD accesses the chip and see what I can find out.

Jaicen, the Megadrive used not only OPL-type synthesis, but also digitized samples and some other synth stuff. I think leaving in only the "YM2612" option in the Gens emulator will show you what the YM was used for, though I'm not sure, maybe the other options are for CPUs controlling the YM in some way.

[Dr.Wily]

You should try with Technosoft driver (Thunderforce IV), it is totaly different than Sega 2612 driver and I think it's better.

However, YM2610 (Neogeo) is a good sound chip. Try it !

[cheater]

Interesting. Thanks.

Any idea what synthesis technology the Technosoft sound chip is using?

[Dr.Wily]

Any idea what synthesis technology the Technosoft sound chip is using?

No you misunderstood me. Tunderforce IV use the Megadrive's YM2612 but the driver and patchs are diferent from Sega's YM driver.

It result of others sound, better than all others patch on this machine. However if you find how this driver works you will take it for sound production.

[Artesia]

a collation of information about quite obscure soundchips, mostly yamaha & closely related to the ym2612

http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~rga24/computer/music/

[cheater]

a collation of information about quite obscure soundchips, mostly yamaha & closely related to the ym2612

http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~rga24/computer/music/

Interesting.

So what the Megadrive chip adds is a voice with all operators having separate frequencies?

Interesting....

Wonder how that works... can it be scaled or does it accept only some frequency values which aren't good enough for musical applications..?

[AndrewMartens]

a collation of information about quite obscure soundchips, mostly yamaha & closely related to the ym2612

http://www.srcf.ucam.org/~rga24/computer/music/

Very amusing, since I'm working on my MB FM right now: in the entry just below the YMF262, I found the YM2164.  Apparently this chip is used in the Korg 707, and I just happened to pick one of those up a few months ago.  For a 49-key MIDI controller with velocity and aftertouch, and an old FM synth built-in, $70 wasn't a bad price.  The odd thing about the 707 is that Korg has the patches setup in the virtual analog style: oscillator waveforms, envelopes, modulators, etc... even though it sounds very VERY digital.

[bill]

For those who love the megadrive sounds, and want to make music with it, a guy from russia just finished a first version of a cool MD tracker : check it out ! ( it's pretty good  ;D )

http://www.spritesmind.net/_GenDev/forum/viewtopic.php?t=125

[Jaicen]

FINALLLY!!

Not only is it a tracker capable of playing through a real Megadrive, but it runs on a PC so it's easy and fast. I'm going to get myself knee-deep in this soon enough! I've also got a ZX Spectrum +3, I wonder if this tracker will work on that?  That would be very cool, because the +3 has integrated MIDI input, so I might be able to find some software to get it sync'd. Justice I say!

[cheater]

Here's a MD tracker with full source. Might be helpful for figuring out how to code for the OPN2.

http://www.spritesmind.net/_GenDev/index.php?page=mvst

[nebula]

Don't forget, you can gain insight into cool wavetabled video game sounds just by recording them and slowing down the playback.

[DrBunsen]

Pardon my thread necromancy:

This guy has a USB MIDI control board and a bunch of control software (running under Max for Live) for the MegaDrive.

http://little-scale.blogspot.com.au/search/label/sega%20mega%20drive%20%2F%20genesis

It appears his first run of boards sold out already:

http://little-scale.com/

[flip]

This guy has a USB MIDI control board and a bunch of control software (running under Max for Live) for the MegaDrive.

http://little-scale.blogspot.com.au/search/label/sega%20mega%20drive%20%2F%20genesis

Damn I was watching this project for years! And now that its finally there I miss it of course...

Well, its only USB Midi so far, buuut (from the FAQ):

Can I buy an "old school" MIDI version of the GenMDM(i.e. 5 pin DIN connection instead of USB)?

Not currently, but this is being explored as a future possibility. Thanks for your patience.

So its worth to wait for that version anyway :)

Thanks for the reminder!

[yogi]

Damn I was watching this project for years! And now that its finally there I miss it of course...

Well, its only USB Midi so far, buuut (from the FAQ):

Can I buy an "old school" MIDI version of the GenMDM(i.e. 5 pin DIN connection instead of USB)?

Not currently, but this is being explored as a future possibility. Thanks for your patience.

So its worth to wait for that version anyway

Thanks for the reminder!

Hey Flip, sorry to be bearing bad news, but round two for the GenMDM interface closed a little while ago, but you could contact Littlescale by PM on Chipmusic.org, he may have a few seats open yet; or ask if anyone wants to sell one from round one. Yes, the interface firmware now accommodates USB AND Midi, also one of the folks is writing a VSTi for the interface. There is a multi-page thread on Chipmusic in the Sega forum, Littlescale post there with updates and new patches, if your interested.