mbSID v2 "live" concept

[nILS]

As a couple of you already know, seppoman and I are working on a different take of the incredible v2 capabilities: An 8xSID with a major focus on live playability.

The whole thing will look like this rendering:

Different angles, bigger pictures:

http://schickt.de/temp/iwannahavethat27.png

http://schickt.de/temp/iwannahavethat28.png

The layout is basically done. Before finalizing it, I thought it would be nice to show it around a bit and possibly collect some useful ideas from you guys. So, any questions, ideas and comments are highly welcome.

Cheerio,

nILS

[bugfight]

looking good.  glad you reconsidered the 8x.

is it big enough to use the mb-6582 main pcb?

looks like there would be room for ext filters...

suggest adding feedback, which rocks.

a 4x mixer would be very useful as well...

[bugfight]

oh, and when will you have my kit ready??

[nILS]

/me orders 25

Yes, Wilba's board will fit in there and be used leaving us with a *lot* of space for external filters.

About the feedback - some more details on that?

[robert lowell]

;) keep me posted.  does that incorporate a mb-seq as well?  i don't have time to look for it but the new vids with the seq plus the external buttons all in one live rig would be primo.

[sineSurfer]

start sending the kits now!!! :o

so you asked for ideas, comments, etc.:

nice to see a design with the "banstick" up/down buttons concept (you may want to fix the typo if it is a typo)

finally someone else likes to actually play besides building and tweaking synths ;D ;D ;D

move the octave/transpose up/down buttons to the pitch bend and modulation wheel panel, easier to find in the middle of a frantic lead solo  8)

somehow the envelope buttons location feels weird as they are not related visually to anything else around... but that may be just me :P

the lines feel too thick against the rest of the design, also you could round all the text box corners to achieve a smoother look, like a crossbreed between this, this and this

otherwise, excellent design you got there! ;)

[bugfight]

...

About the feedback - some more details on that?

a quick search, with mad web skills reveals:

http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php/topic,9238.msg66511.html#msg66511

[TK.]

My first thought: why are the waveform and ring/sync buttons so dominant? Wouldn't it be better to add 8 volume pots for the SIDs + 4 "Mono" buttons (which merge two channels together for multi engine) instead of spending area for functions which are not permanently used live?

There is no "Poly" engine, it's called "Multi" engine (as you can play up to 6 instruments)

The modwheel makes "Knob 1" obsolete

Why not adding a second modwheel?

CutOff and Resonance knobs are too close together.

The modulation matrix is missing :)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[bugfight]

My first thought: why are the waveform and ring/sync buttons so dominant? Wouldn't it be better to add 8 volume pots for the SIDs + 4 "Mono" buttons (which merge two channels together for multi engine) instead of spending area for functions which are not permanently used live?

hmmm, i really like the idea of mono buttons

i wonder if the mixer might best be implemented by adding vca...

Why not adding a second modwheel?

ooooo great idea, i've never seen this before, they would need to be easy to "feel" so you knew which one you were spasticly grabbing...

or how about a joystick?

CutOff and Resonance knobs are too close together.

agree.

The modulation matrix is missing :)

hehe, was my first reaction in the chat too.

told ya so, f *whack*

also, i'm wondering why the menu controls are on the left.  i am not left handed, so no one else should be either...

*whack*

[TK.]

hmmm, i really like the idea of mono buttons

i wonder if the mixer might best be implemented by adding vca...

An analog mixer would be sufficient

also, i'm wondering why the menu controls are on the left.  i am not left handed, so no one else should be either...

Look at other synths - LCD and menu controls are mostly on the left

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[bugfight]

An analog mixer would be sufficient

it may be a can of worms regarding the patch/ensemble structure,

but vca would be useful for other things and maybe more flexible

and keep the control count down...

if you already gots cvs vca is pretty easy...

Look at other synths - LCD and menu controls are mostly on the left

Best Regards, Thorsten.

all of these are on the right:

  kurzweil k2000

  roland rd-700

  kawai xd-5

  mb-6582

  quadraverb 2 (hehe ok, not a synth i won't list the other non-synths)

if you manipulate with your right hand you don't want it covering the display...

maybe a lot of others menu around with left hand while playing righty?

or maybe you thought i meant where the lcd is on the panel. 

i meant where the menu controls are relative to the lcd.

[sineSurfer]

also, i'm wondering why the menu controls are on the left.  i am not left handed, so no one else should be either...*whack*

I am left handed :), and it would make more sense to me if the menu controls and LCD where on the right side, those are the ones you won't use a lot playing live... also, fine knob tweaks are done better with your natural hand(or whatever is called hehe) so that would place the filter and LFO knobs on the left side for a lefty.

Thinking about this:

If you are playing a bass line you have the right hand free, if playing a lead the left hand is free, so ideally the most used controls should be on the center so you can use whatever hand you have free to tweak the knobs and press the buttons... ergonomics they call it.

btw. you should not be righty, you know!? righties are baaaad *whack*

and just to add some wood to the bonfire

menu controls on the left:

all the korg's electribes

clavia nord lead

moog phatty

yamaha AN200

TK mbSID!

[bugfight]

...menu controls on the left:

again, i was referring to which side of the lcd the controls are on, not which side of the panel the lcd is on.

we can talk about that, too of course...

[TK.]

if you manipulate with your right hand you don't want it covering the display...

maybe a lot of others menu around with left hand while playing righty?

or maybe you thought i meant where the lcd is on the panel. 

i meant where the menu controls are relative to the lcd.

You are totally right, I overlooked this - yes, the menu controls are at the wrong side (for right-hand people)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[nILS]

Side-note: Right-handed people are on the wrong side ;-)

Thanks for all the feedback so far. I love the way this turns into a productive discussion, so I'll just point out some general things being talked about here:

sineSurfer: the lines feel too thick against the rest of the design

The design itself (colors of the LEDs, lines, labels) is not final in any way. It's merely a rough draft to show what the buttons are.

sineSurfer: somehow the envelope buttons location feels weird as they are not related visually to anything else around...

Yes. They'd have to be in the top-most row to fint in with the layout. But there wasn't any room, so they got shoved down there for now.

TK: my first thought: why are the waveform and ring/sync buttons so dominant?

A good point. We're a bit torn between really only adding the controls one'll most likely need live and still having a lot of stuff on there that's neat for programming sounds. Atm the tendency is to get rid of some of the stuff though.

TK: There is no "Poly" engine, it's called "Multi" engine (as you can play up to 6 instruments)

Right, this is a typo/temporary labelling issue. It's fixed in one of the two images already I believe.

TK: The modwheel makes "Knob 1" obsolete.

Yep -> will be removed

TK: CutOff and Resonance knobs are too close together.

I find the spacing (which is the same as on my SID) perfect. But, we'll take this into account.

TK: The modulation matrix is missing

Nope. It's been left out. I personally don't miss it at all ;-) It's being reconsidered though.

Bugfight: suggest adding feedback, which rocks.

Yes. Definitely. Thanks for the pointer, how'd I miss that?

With that in mind - keep going! :D

[bugfight]

TK: The modulation matrix is missing

Nope. It's been left out. I personally don't miss it at all ;-) It's being reconsidered though.

i think most folks would rather have the mixer than the matrix, if it's one xor the other...

[Echopraxia]

Has any one used a yamaha TG 33 synth before? It has a great joystick on it that mixes the four voices  of a single patch. It is really fun for live because you can switch/mix between four different sounds as fast as a cross fader. Its great for doing A-B-A-B style tracks. I thought it would be cool to add one by the mod wheel.

[seppoman]

Hi,

just a small update - hope that posting this is ok with you, Nils: yesterday we were discussing and redesigning the whole evening. It's still no final version, still thinking about a mixer (or at least volume pots as a full mixer with pan etc would need too much space) etc. So just to show you another variant:

http://schickt.de/temp/iwannahavethat56.png

:D

S

[nILS]

Just a quick updated to what's happened there up to the image linked above:

* added the matrix (there ya go bugfight and TK) ;-)

* added feedback (thx bugfight)

* fixed "Banstick" typo (thanks sineSurfer)

* got rid of several buttons

* added switch to turn on/bypass external filter

* encoders are now equidistant and further apart from each other

But we moved along a bit further since last night:

(bigger version: http://www.schickt.de/temp/iwannahavethat59.png)

* moved stuff around

* added volume pots for the 4 pairs of SIDs and merged them with the feedback knobs into a "mixer" section

To generate more panel space we experimented with a 4 octave version (adding ~15cm to the panel width), but found that this leads to an overall size we thought was too big, besides a lot more space -> a lot more controls => stuff is harder to find ;-) A quick test render can be found here http://schickt.de/temp/iwannahavethat54.png

Further ideas, comments, questions?

[tarzan boy]

this may have been rehashed a bunch in the chats, but I am clueless on this:

what would it take (i mean what parts, modifications, etc) to add the keyboard to the design? Are there sellers that sell just the keys ready for midi projects or are we talking about cannabalizing some (hopefully velocity-sensitive) existing keyboard/midi controller?

[nILS]

what would it take (i mean what parts, modifications, etc) to add the keyboard to the design?

You could get the needed hardware from doepfer for instance. Nice quality but fairly expensive.

Or you could buy something like this:

Simple Controller-/Masterkeyboards are fairly cheap. Basically, all you'll do is replace the case wit your own case, hook up the MIDI Out of the keyboard and the MIDI In of the new case to a MIDI merger and run that into the core.

[tarzan boy]

right but those kinds of controllers are all kinds of different sizes, and if this is a specific design with a CS pcb made for it, seems like we would need one or just a few options of sources to get the keyboard part...

I would love to take the keys from my DX7, the thing is a breeze to disassemble and put back together again, but that keyboard is huge, thick, and really heavy.

[nILS]

Once the CS questions are settled, we'll take a deep dive into the vast amount of keyboard options available and come up with something that's easy to source and affordable.

[Wilba]

Further ideas, comments, questions?

OK, since you asked ;)

Maybe the Config section (SID, Bankstick, Channel) could be rearranged so there's one horizontal row of SID buttons, then the Channel and Bankstick buttons underneath. It would look neater and make it easier to press all four at once (i.e. when you want to select all four SID engines).

Maybe Bankstick is less useful than Ensemble up/down?

Is the mod matrix bicolour (red and green) LEDs or single colour LEDs? (The picture shows red and orange, are these intended to be a mix of red and orange LEDs?) The mod matrix LEDs gets used for other things (meters, bassline sequence and step, etc). so a single colour of LEDs within it would be preferred... or use bicolour and add another DOUT for a second set of common anodes. BTW, I worked out a neat way of using the same LED footprint so you could use single colour 3mm LED (2-pin) or bicolour (common cathode) 3mm LED (3-pin).

Volume and Filter (on the mod matrix) are the wrong way around (unless that is intentional).

[nILS]

Maybe the Config section (SID, Bankstick, Channel) could be rearranged so there's one horizontal row of SID buttons, then the Channel and Bankstick buttons underneath. It would look neater and make it easier to press all four at once (i.e. when you want to select all four SID engines).

Will look into that.

Maybe Bankstick is less useful than Ensemble up/down?

That could be fixed with shift making the buttons Ensemble/Bankstick.

Is the mod matrix bicolour (red and green) LEDs or single colour LEDs?

Single color LEDs.

(The picture shows red and orange, are these intended to be a mix of red and orange LEDs?) The mod matrix LEDs gets used for other things (meters, bassline sequence and step, etc). so a single colour of LEDs within it would be preferred...

I just used two colors to see, which color will look nicer and actually make sense there. The colors of the LEDs/illumination isn't fully making sense yet. I plan to have the colors hint to the function of the controls, as I did with my SID and IIRC as TK did on his SID panel as well. As of now "select" is green, "modify" is yellow/orangish and "subselect" is red. Kinda. ;D

Volume and Filter (on the mod matrix) are the wrong way around (unless that is intentional).

Again, this is just me trying to remember what the last two rows were for ;-)