djjonnyjams Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Hello. I am known as DJ Jonny Jams, but you may call me Jon. I grew up playing Commodore 64 games, and the sound is deeply embedded in my subconcious. I am also a musician. About two years ago I heard about prophet64 software that would allow me to compose on the commodore using a familiar interface.I never got prophet, for lack of midi support.I recently acquired MSSIAH, and embarked on a commodore 64 modding adventure that gave me more confidence in my soldering skills: <div style="width:480px;text-align:right;"><embed width="480" height="360" src="http://feed640.photobucket.com/flash/rss_slideshow.swf?rssFeed=http%3A%2F%2Ffeed640.photobucket.com%2Falbums%2Fuu127%2Fdjjonnyjams%2Ffeed.rss" type="application/x-shockwave-flash" wmode="transparent" /><a href="http://photobucket.com/redirect/album?showShareLB=1" target="_blank"><img src="http://pic.photobucket.com/share/icons/embed/btn_geturs.gif" style="border:none;" /></a><a href="http://s640.photobucket.com/albums/uu127/djjonnyjams/" target="_blank"><img src="http://pic.photobucket.com/share/icons/embed/btn_viewall.gif" style="border:none;" /></a></div> I still have very little knowledge of electrical design, curcuits, formulas etc. I'd like to build a midibox, but I am very intimidated by the number of options available and the number of components required. Can someone please point me in the direction of the simplest minimal setup that would be good for a first project? Thanks in advance~J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SLP Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Hi Jon, welcome aboard!the information you are looking for can be read on those pages:http://ucapps.de/MB-SID: http://ucapps.de/midibox_sid.htmland of course the wiki: http://wiki.midibox.org/Midiboxing is pretty easy. All the PCBs can be bought from SmashTV. He also offers complete kits, but if you want, you can order the other components yourself.A Midibox is completely modular. For all projects you need a Core module (PIC based Core). You can connect other modules to the Core, e.g. If you want to connect buttons, encoders, LEDs and Pots/Sliders. The module you are looking for, is the SID-Module. This module is controlled my the Core and it consists basically of the SID-chip known from the C64.For the most basic setup, a Core and a SID-Module are sufficent (an additional LCD is helpful for debugging). You can controll all the parameters over MIDI.If you have further questions, please read through the documentation, then search the forum (most questions have been asked before) and if you haven't found answers for your questions, you can always ask here or in the chat (that's where the geeks are ;)).regardsmatthias Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Have a look at my post here for what i consider the easiest way:http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php/topic,13381.msg114884.html#msg114884 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frailn Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Welcome Jon! Glad to see you made it over here from the P64/MSSIAH forums.I followed the same path as you - modded a C64 breadbin: built out a SID2SID board, added pots and audio in/out. It just whetted my appetite for more, so I ended up over here.I agree with Smithy that the MB-6582 is the easiest way to put together a great synth. But, my first project was not the MB-6582, it was just one Core PCB and one SID PCB (both purchased from SmashTV's site). I'm glad I did this first, because it gave me MUCH insight into what I am doing as I put together the MB-6582. Here is my suggestion to get you started - purchase the following at SmashTV's site:1. Core Kit with PIC18F4685, PID ID Header = 0000 0000 0000 0000 - $26.952. SID Kit - $153. 16 pin Female IDC Connector (for hooking up your LCD) - $.504. 16 pin Ribbon Cable (for hooking up your LCD) - $2.505. 10 pin Female IDC Connector x 2 (for hooking up your Core module to your SID module) - $1.006. 10 pin Ribbon Cable - $2.007. 2-Pin Female Connector x 5 - for running power to both modules and maybe for your audio in and out - $3.65Total from SmashTV's shop: $51.60Also, you'll need an LCD. If you search this forum, you'll find tons of info on finding them cheap. Stryd has a great eBay search link that should put you in business.This should cover the basics - someone pipe up if I missed anything. But, this is enough to build something that you can hook up to your MIDI keyboard or MIDI ports of your computer and make music. And, it's simple enough to get you started and understanding all the concepts behind a MIDIbox. The best part is...you can add on to this project later and build it out even more by adding a control surface that you design.After I built my first Core and Sid module and was able to make music with it, I started collecting parts for the MB-6582, which I'm in the middle of building now. I also started collecting parts for a sequencer, MIDIbox FM, SSM2044 filter PCB, and the A-Y-3910 box that Lemonhorse has designed. Once you get that first "Ready." text on your first Core LCD, you are HOOKED. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djjonnyjams Posted April 20, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 WoW!Thanks for all the helpful replies. Your greetings are very encouraging. I think I will have a stab at the midibox core and SID modules soon. Good thing we got that new Xerox machine at my day-job....I've got a lot of printing and reading to do. What impresses me the most is how affordable this first project is. I think I may have found the perfect hobby.....MIDIBOX! I usually obsess over a project for a few weeks and once it's finished, or once there's no more room to grow...I get bored and move on. It seems the possible configurations and additions to midibox are limitless, so I feel like this is a project I will never get bored with. Thanks for the help. You might not hear from me for at least two weeks because I'll be reading all I can while I wait for my parts to arrive. I would like to ask one more question though...Can someone recommend a decent soldering station at a reasonable price? also a good solution for de-soldering (wick? bulb? iron+bulb?) I know I'm going to need good tools to do this type of fine work. ~J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frailn Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 I'm in the US, so I use a desoldering wick that's available at the local Radioshack. Also get my solder there: .022" Rosin Core silver-bearing, part number 64-013. While you're at Radioshack buy a crimping tool - Model: 64-2984 - around $8.And I picked up an anti-static mat set at Radioshack as well so I wouldn't fry my MIDIbox projects with static electricity. This is a MUST when you are handling SID's and PIC's and other electronics. Model: 276-2370Stuff to get at the dollar store: Tweezers come in handy. As does a cheap magnifying glass. Tiny screwdriver set.For soldering, I bought a Hakko 936-12 and love it! You can get one for around $80. Do not buy your soldering station at Radioshack. If you don't get the Hakko, look at Weller's. This is the one purchase you don't want to cheat yourself on. Bad soldering iron = frustration and giving up on your project! Trust me, I've been there... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 I agree with Smithy that the MB-6582 is the easiest way to put together a great synth. But, my first project was not the MB-6582, it was just one Core PCB and one SID PCB (both purchased from SmashTV's site). I'm glad I did this first, because it gave me MUCH insight into what I am doing as I put together the MB-6582. I complete forgot about this! Its highly recommend to start with just a sid module and core module, before taking on Wilbas Beast, as stated in the wiki: ;)Be sure to check that page and the links, (the construction guide in particular).Practically everything you need to know about the MB-6582 is in there.Practically everything you need to know about any project is available on ucapps, the wiki, and the forum too. ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flemming Posted April 20, 2009 Report Share Posted April 20, 2009 Hi JonNice to see you here tooMSSIAH is great but in the end i also turned to midibox, now i don't use my MSSIAH anymore!?After i modded some C64s and soldered a S2S i moved on to core and sid modules, i now have most of the parts to build my MB6582 but i have yet a lot to learn before i dare even start on that one ;)Anyway, welcome aboard :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryd_one Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 You might not hear from me for at least two weeks because I'll be reading all I can while I wait for my parts to arriveSounds like words of wisdom to me!Can someone recommend a decent soldering station at a reasonable price?Maybe this thread will help: Re: MB-6582 ate my soldering iron... or ...What Soldering Iron should I get also a good solution for de-soldering (wick? bulb? iron+bulb?) All of the above ;) I use a springloaded solder sucker and wick personally, but IMO you can never have enough tools :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilba Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 I complete forgot about this! Its highly recommend to start with just a sid module and core module, before taking on Wilbas Beast, as stated in the wiki: ;)Where does it state that in the wiki? I can't find it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frailn Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 Where does it state that in the wiki? I can't find it.I think Smithy meant to reference the Walkthrough page on ucapps.de.If you've never built a MIDIbox project before' date=' it makes sense to start with the minimal MIDIbox SID solution, which consists of a CORE and SID module. You can expand your MIDIbox later by a Control Surface and multiple slave SIDs, there is nothing which has to be thrown away!Smithy, you're like me. I've read through so much documentation so many times that it all starts bleeding together into one mass of data in my head and I can't always recall where I originally found the info! :)I can say that I totally agree with this approach - doing one Core and one SID module for the first project. It was a good experience that has prepared me for other projects. I've gained good insight into how to plan properly, troubleshoot, where to go for information, gained familiarity with the proper tools, etc....but most importantly, I was able to work on the MB-6582 with much more confidence and a knowledge and insight into how Wilba designed the board. If I had done the MB-6582 as my first project, I would have been confused and lost in the woods! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted April 21, 2009 Report Share Posted April 21, 2009 I think Smithy meant to reference the Walkthrough page on ucapps.de.Ah sorry, at the time i could of sworn i read it in there when i posted!I must have read it on the forum then. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strophlex Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 And I picked up an anti-static mat set at Radioshack as well so I wouldn't fry my MIDIbox projects with static electricity. This is a MUST when you are handling SID's and PIC's and other electronics. Model: 276-2370Is it so essential? I never used it and never fried anything eventhough I have intended to get it all the time. Use to deelectrify myself by touching metal before haldling sensitive components. Don't get me wrong, of course it is good but am I alone not using this stuff? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Flexinoodle Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 No your not aloneI dont use em and i know some well respected guys round here dont too ;)Flexi Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
strophlex Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Is it so essential? I never used it and never fried anything eventhough I have intended to get it all the time. Use to deelectrify myself by touching metal before haldling sensitive components. Don't get me wrong, of course it is good but am I alone not using this stuff?Anyway. Beware of the risks of static electricity and handle ICs with care. Especially expencive ones like SIDs... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frailn Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Is it so essential? I never used it and never fried anythingI dont use em and i know some well respected guys round here dont tooWell, for guys like Jon and I who are fairly new to building electronics circuits, the last thing we need is to fry something with static electricity and then go down eight million rabbit trails trying to figure out why something doesn't work. Then, clog up the forum with help requests that could have been avoided. The wrist strap and/or matt is cheap insurance, especially when we're talking about using analog chips that are getting more expensive and harder to come by as the years progress. I'm sure you can toss the static electricity strap and mat once you've established a long history and habit of grounding yourself before touching a board or electronics everytime you sit down to work on a project. I still say at that at least a wrist strap is an essential for us newbies. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djjonnyjams Posted April 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 I have bid on the same HAK936 Soldering station you reccomended frailn. I might be able to steal it for less than $30.00 shipped! I was wondering where I can buy new tips for this iron? Could one make their own anti-static mat? I have always handled chips carelessly, because I was working on 25 year old commodores that were donated to me and I really didn't care. On this midibox project, I'd like to do it properly. I'm also very cheap, so could you describe the materials used in your anti-static mat? I'd like to order the raw materials and make one that covers an entire table in my work-room.I posted a list of spare parts I have for trade in the "parts" forum. Frailn, I know you probably have some of the parts I need for the SID2SID boards... I have two commodores that will be delivered today, and two more that are on the way. I ordered them all last week before I decided to build a midibox. These will be the last four I do for a while. I am going to keep the one with the cleanest motherboard for myself and eventually set it up with two 6582's. This will be my personal MSSIAH machine. I will also keep the one I currently use for CYNTHCART. The rest will be refurbished, modded, and sold to raise funds for my midibox project. I know that many of you have walked the same path. Care to share your experiences in this post? Or maybe just ramble some Commodore64 nostalgia for a while?~J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
frailn Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 I have bid on the same HAK936 Soldering station you reccomended frailn. I might be able to steal it for less than $30.00 shipped! I was wondering where I can buy new tips for this iron?Awesome price! You can get tips through the Hakko corporate website. There are probably other sources you can google up, as well.Could one make their own anti-static mat?I just did a google search on "anti-static diy" - looks like there are a lot of ideas out there. I just bought a strap and mat from Radioshack. It was around $20. A little pricey, but hey, it's insurance and piece of mind for me. You can get the same result cheaper with a little DIY ingenuity. But, I just wanted something I could grab and use.I posted a list of spare parts I have for trade in the "parts" forum. You know, you can recycle some electronic parts from a throw-away C64 board. I've read on several forums where people have done this. If you are short a certain resistor, etc..and don't want to have to do another Mouser order and pay shipping, just desolder the part you need from a C64 board that is not working or is a throw-away.But, I know that I have some spare parts that will work with your SID2SID. I'll check my inventory tonight and let you know what I have available for you! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djjonnyjams Posted April 22, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 thanks Frailn! I already stole all the caps off my bad motherboards... a lot of them were no good. Or not removed properly (remember I inquired about a good desoldering solution, heh heh)yeah, while I was googling all the other stuff, I could've also searched for "DIY anti-static mat" but I guess I just wanted to hear myself talk on the forum...You're right, recycling is great! However, I prefer to use new components on my next SID2SID, because I intend to put 6582's in it, and I feel that they deserve brand new components I wish I could find new stock on all the commodore parts and build a brand new one to last another 20+ years....But I can't (?)MIDIBOX is a good investment...Mouser huh? That's the third time I heard that name regarding perts for the SID2SID. Might as well set up an account with them.I appreciate all your help. Don't killl yourself looking for parts for me. If you do have some of the things I need, just send a paypal invoice to djjonnyjams@yahoo.com and I'll send you the loot, also provide your shipping adress, and I'll send you some vinyl key-labels for the commodore64 (like the ones on my black mod) I make them at the graphics shop where I work.Peace~J Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryd_one Posted April 22, 2009 Report Share Posted April 22, 2009 Is it so essential? I never used it and never fried anything eventhough I have intended to get it all the time. Use to deelectrify myself by touching metal before haldling sensitive components. Don't get me wrong, of course it is good but am I alone not using this stuff?I use static shielding always... The chances of frying something with static are low, for example let's say it's 1000:1... After you've done 1000 repairs, chances are, you're gonna bust something ;) When you've done as many repairs as me, you've crossed that line, fried stuff, and done it a few times.... and eventually decided "shit, maybe I should wear static protection". Of course, it's down to chance, so you might get unlucky on your first touch, which is why I suggest the static protection from the very beginning... I know one guy who pulled a $1200 peripheral from a server on his first day, reinserted it, and it was dead....The touching metal thing you mentioned is not sufficient. I think you're mixing up an old techo's trick, which is to discharge yourself by touching something metal -which is grounded-, like the back of a PC case. It helps, but it's probably not enough - especially if you wear any unnatural fibres such as polyester, which like to generate static when you move around. Touching a random piece of metal that's not earthed may discharge some electricity (never all), or you might just pick some up :(Personally, I wear an ankle strap (stays outta the way) and work on wood surfaces (so I don't use a mat) when I'm at home. Is it essential? No. Is it a very good idea? Definitely. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
djjonnyjams Posted April 23, 2009 Author Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 Ankle strap? That's Gnarly, Surfer Dude! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryd_one Posted April 23, 2009 Report Share Posted April 23, 2009 Like, totally bodacious duuuude :DOh btw, at least in my home elcheapo lab, those are nothing special, just a wrist strap, worn around the ankle instead. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Labelwhore Posted April 24, 2009 Report Share Posted April 24, 2009 I have definitely not done 1000 repairs and have fried an LCD with static, not quite as expensive as a $1200 card, but I nearly cried in my beer over it none-the-less. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wilba Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 I have touched over 3000 SIDs without any anti-static protection and they all worked. :)But when I took the motherboard out of my PC to replace the CPU fan, I did it in the nude standing on wooden floorboards with an earthed cable in my ground socket.The moral: do what stryd_one says. Don't take chances when it really matters ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Futureman Posted April 25, 2009 Report Share Posted April 25, 2009 I did it in the nude standing on wooden floorboards with an earthed cable in my ground socket.Some people pay for pictures of things like that.. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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