TK.

Upcoming MBHP_MF_NG module

379 posts in this topic

Just now, WingMa said:

Please guys,

 

Help me because I need to order the pots!!!!!

 

Please, Regards:

Bela

10k is what I used.

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Thorsten tell me I can use 5K pot too but together on one board???

Edited by WingMa

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Because I need 12 60mm pot and 2 100mm pot my project

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Hi! I am trying to get some faders moving, but up to now, they refuse to move. That's alright, "refusing to move" is a phenomenon that most people that produce dance music and perform it live or DJ might have experienced, it just takes some time, but you can normally lure the people into your groove. Well, IF they are people. Right now, they are NOT. They are P&G motor faders called PGFM3200. But an older version than the one i was able to find data sheets from. The wires have different color codes, but with some trial and (predominantly) error, I have manged to get the analog input working alright, with no jitter at all. 

At the moment, I have only the first fader connected, and it is set to to output PB, I get values from -7936 to +7904. TBH, i don't even know what the complete PB range is, but as it's almost perfectly symmetrical, I just assume it's alright. However, the MOTOR doesn't do anything except some lame PWM growling, but no moving. It's my first time trying to get a motor fader to run, so please excuse my ignorance. The data sheet i found for the newer version of this fader says "stall current" is 0.54A. I guess "stall" means "not moving", and that seems like a lot of current for doing nothing - maybe the board (and the PSU) are not able to supply enough juice?

I am aware that there is not much action in this thread, but help would be appreciated! I even have spare faders to bestow upon ye that are helpful (because i was given a lot of them for free!).

Please see the attached photo for my (pretty simplistic) prototype layout.

mfng_prototype1.jpg

Edited by u-link
typo

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Hello

 

1 hour ago, u-link said:

The data sheet i found for the newer version of this fader says "stall current" is 0.54A. I guess "stall" means "not moving", and that seems like a lot of current for doing nothing

"Stall current" is the current consumption  when the motor is "lock", meaning want to move but can't, like mechanical stop end when you still ask him to move further. In short this is the max current the motor can ask.

To move (without constraints) the motor should ask less that that...

Your issue is somewhere else

Best

Zam

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18 hours ago, Zam said:

"Stall current" is the current consumption  when the motor is "lock", meaning want to move but can't, like mechanical stop end when you still ask him to move further. In short this is the max current the motor can ask.

Thanks a lot for clearing that up - makes a lot more sense than my assumption. I tried fiddling around a bit more, but the faders still won't move. The faders are actually looking a lot more like the earlier 3000 series P&G faders, they are open and supposed to move the wiper with a string, not with a belt. But even the data sheet of these guys has different wire colors listed than on mine, but i think i sorted that out. The touch sensor also works, but only when I touch the ground line with my other hand - there is a second ground wire for connecting the fader housing to ground (i think, which is what i did).

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So, not too shabby, I think i figured my problem: these faders need higher voltage. I actually tried to connect some PSUs directly to a fader motor. 16V didn't do anything except some wiggling, 21.5V from an old Boss mixer PSU finally made it move! The faders were made to customer's spec it seems, maybe they are supposed to run on 24V?

The L293D can run up to 36V, the LM317 can also output 38V, I think, so would it be ok to connect a higher rated PSU to the MF_NG board? I would have to change the electrolytical caps, they are rated at 25V . The 7805 is already getting pretty dam hot, though, even with the 12V AC PSU I have connected now and a small heat sink. Maybe I could replace that with a switch mode regulator?

Edited by u-link

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I tried to connect a different motor fader (ALPS CP K.Fader), and this one works! I guess I'll just leave it at that and use those.

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Hi Everyone, I hope someone is still watching this thread because I do need some help. I've been reading through this forum and I decided to go ahead and make this mbhp_mf_ng-module to automate my API custom console. I don't need anything more than fader recall for my 16 channels. No Mutes, no other buttons. Just fader recall via midi. That would be GREAT. I bought 3 of the boards with much anticipation of ruining the first one I make as I am a noob at all this. I know how to solder, I've made my own mics, op amps and a few other projects.

I plan on using this module standalone directly working with my DAW. I hope this is the right solution for me. I wasn't able to find a preloaded PIC for this so I bought a pickit 4 and I'm going to try and load it myself. (fingers crossed). If anyone knows where I can get a preloaded on in the USA that would be great too know in case I mess this up.

I bought all the parts for one board and realized I bought some wrong parts (SMD instead of through hole etc) so I am awaiting the new ones. But the first thing I realized is :

  • J1 is the power inputs I can't tell which is positive and which is negative. I looked at the schematics and I think that the left pin is positive and right pin is negative. is this correct? (see attached pic)
  • Also, I'm not sure which is the positive side for the LED. I assume its the left also. (see attached pic).
  • is the LED status of the board being powered on or does it blink for midi transmission? 

That's all the noob questions for now, I hope someone can reply. Oh and please be gentle! :grin:

MF_NG Power.png

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Hello and welcome here

16 hours ago, Zeke said:

J1 is the power inputs I can't tell which is positive and which is negative. I looked at the schematics and I think that the left pin is positive and right pin is negative. is this correct? (see attached pic)

The pcb you show have rectifier and regulator, so the input is AC

16 hours ago, Zeke said:

Also, I'm not sure which is the positive side for the LED. I assume its the left also. (see attached pic).

anode is positive, the silkscreen seem to show it on the left, as you assume

 

16 hours ago, Zeke said:

is the LED status of the board being powered on or does it blink for midi transmission? 

I don't remember well but I think it's connected to a pic output, so should show some activity.

 

Have a search, @TK. work on a wireless PIC replacement for this board , also @Antichambre have a super small STM32 board with PIC pinout compatibility IIRC

should not be that complicated (for those who know how to) to make this MIOS8 app running on MIOS32

Best

Zam

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Posted (edited)

Thanks @Zam 

I'm glad you confirmed my thoughts on the power positive and negative. I was planning on using this AC/DC Adapter Switching Power Supply with 8 Selectable voltages for 3V to 12V (https://www.amazon.com/dp/B01N7RS0NG/ref=cm_sw_em_r_mt_dp_U_4f72EbWV5B7NS) [Also see attached pic] I see now that it is DC I guess this wouldn't work. Also, I'm curious if being in the US do I have to change out any parts for the power to work? I don't know if anyone can help with that.

 

 

I've populated the PCB (see pic) with what I think will be sufficient for 1 or 2 faders. I'm just hesitant about power it up with out knowing if this plug wiil work.

Power-2.jpg

 

Fader-Module-Built 2.jpg

Fader-Module-Built.jpg

Edited by Zeke
PIC18f in picture was wrong

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Well, so far it has gone well. After some initial issues with getting the MIOS firmware installed. I finally managed to get it running but I'm kind of at a loss. So I connected 1 fader only without the touch sensor. When I open up the MIOS Studio midi messages are constantly running in the midi in. looks like this:

[1604719.907] f0 00 00 7e 40 00 01 f7

[1604766.299] e0 10 07   Chn# 1  Pitchbend -7280
[1604766.304] e0 00 04   Chn# 1  Pitchbend -7680
[1604766.304] e0 60 01   Chn# 1  Pitchbend -7968
[1604766.304] e0 30 01   Chn# 1  Pitchbend -8016
[1604766.304] e0 50 01   Chn# 1  Pitchbend -7984
[1604766.307] e0 00 00   Chn# 1  Pitchbend -8192
[1604766.307] e0 00 00   Chn# 1  Pitchbend -8192
[1604766.308] e0 00 00   Chn# 1  Pitchbend -8192
[1604766.308] e0 40 03   Chn# 1  Pitchbend -7744

the midi message just keeps going non-stop. When I open my DAW the volume on track 1 is following the midi and it's going up and down like crazy. So I'm pretty sure that isn't right. hehe. I don't know why it's doing that. I tried to calibrate it but I've had no luck. Any chance someone has encountered this before? 

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Hello

Seem you have Vref and servo track instability/jitter.

Check servo voltage.

What is your fader ? how it is connected ? did you hook the motor ? if yes did the physical fader jump too ?

Not sure 100% how it is handled at MF_NG code, but IIRC data transmission should run only when fader touched (for obvious reason). No touch connected might cause issue ?

Best

Zam

 

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You have to wire the touch inputs to GND.

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Thanks Zam and Novski for the help.

I'm using an ALPS RSA0N11M9A0J, I know it's not going to help my long term goal but if I could get this cheap one working first then I'll invest in some good ones with both Servo + Dual audio. So I grounded the Touch Inputs to GND but I was still getting the Jitters. After much playing around the only thing that worked for me was to:

  • Disabling Touch sensor,
  • Disable midi merger,
  • set AIN DeadBand to 63 and set MF DeadBand to 63.
  • Operation Mode is in Emulated Mackie Controller

Only then I get no jitters. When I change it to Mackie Hui then the below happens ever 2 secs or so.

[ 750.591] f0 00 00 7e 4f 00 0f 00 f7
[ 750.891] 90 00 7f   Chn# 1  Note On  c-2  Vel:127
[ 751.907] 90 00 7f   Chn# 1  Note On  c-2  Vel:127
[ 752.919] 90 00 7f   Chn# 1  Note On  c-2  Vel:127
[ 753.935] 90 00 7f   Chn# 1  Note On  c-2  Vel:127
[ 754.947] 90 00 7f   Chn# 1  Note On  c-2  Vel:127
[ 755.963] 90 00 7f   Chn# 1  Note On  c-2  Vel:127
[ 756.975] 90 00 7f   Chn# 1  Note On  c-2  Vel:127
[ 757.991] 90 00 7f   Chn# 1  Note On  c-2  Vel:127
[ 759.003] 90 00 7f   Chn# 1  Note On  c-2  Vel:127
[ 760.019] 90 00 7f   Chn# 1  Note On  c-2  Vel:127
[ 761.031] 90 00 7f   Chn# 1  Note On  c-2  Vel:127
[ 762.047] 90 00 7f   Chn# 1  Note On  c-2  Vel:127
[ 763.059] 90 00 7f   Chn# 1  Note On  c-2  Vel:127
[ 764.075] 90 00 7f   Chn# 1  Note On  c-2  Vel:127
[ 765.087] 90 00 7f   Chn# 1  Note On  c-2  Vel:127
[ 766.103] 90 00 7f   Chn# 1  Note On  c-2  Vel:127
[ 767.115] 90 00 7f   Chn# 1  Note On  c-2  Vel:127
[ 767.443] f0 00 00 7e 4f 00 0f 00 f7

I don't know if this is fixable or not? I don't mind using Mackie Controller for now but HUI would of been nice. Lastly, and the most important is once I close MIOS studio and reboot my pc and power off the MF_NG Module, the MF_NG module doesn't seem to remember any of the calibration or settings I have done. I have to open it up again, load the settings in to the MF_NG tool and then it starts. Is this how it is suppose to work or am I not saving this to the memory properly? How can I have it so I don't have to calibrate it all the time.

 

Thanks in Advanced!

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Posted (edited)

Hello Zeke

Again check ref (servo) voltage stability, what voltage do you send to the board ? IIRC vref is 5V standard regulator, you need 3 more V to ensure "proper" regulation and minimum ripple

What happen if you disconnect motor (EMI suppression) ?

With HUI protocol, there is a constant call to ensure device is connected, C2 might be this ?

Don't remember how the upload to the PIC is done in MIOS studio.

Best

Zam

 

Edited by Zam

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I am back! I've got a good amount done since my last post. Thanks to @Zam and @novski I had fixed the problems I was having. I had calibrated the faders so they move smoothly as per a different post I read on this thread. So then I bought the rest of the parts and started to put it together.

I bought Bourns faders PSM01-082A-103B2 ( https://www.mouser.com/datasheet/2/54/psm-778343.pdf ) they are a little nicer than the ALPS and I couldn't find alp dual track faders here in the US. I have wired it up, I don't have a face plate yet but everything works up until I connect the audio track of the faders to my mixer.  My faders are connected my channel strips via TRS, Every time I move the faders I can hear the clicks of the midi through my speakers and a buzzing noise. I've tried different cables and that hasn't helped. I've tried moving the faders without the module connected and the audio track doesn't make noise. I've noticed that when the faders are at 0% and 100% I don't hear the buzz or click, its only when its in the middle between 10%-90%. I think I may have a ground issue but I can't figure out where. I tried connecting the J14 touch sensor ground to the chasis but that didn't help. I'm at a loss.... the only thing I can think of are that I didn't solder the little holes on the pcb board but I'm sure that doesn't need to be soldered.

I also noticed that when I calibrate the faders I'm now getting this jitter and noise when i click the middle button.

[92053.191] e7 30 38   Chn# 8  Pitchbend -976
[92053.191] e7 40 40   Chn# 8  Pitchbend 64
[92053.499] e5 10 36   Chn# 6  Pitchbend -1264
[92053.499] e5 30 40   Chn# 6  Pitchbend 48
[92053.891] e0 30 38   Chn# 1  Pitchbend -976
[92053.891] e0 40 40   Chn# 1  Pitchbend 64
[92054.023] e0 30 37   Chn# 1  Pitchbend -1104
[92054.023] e0 40 40   Chn# 1  Pitchbend 64
[92054.063] e1 10 38   Chn# 2  Pitchbend -1008
[92054.067] e1 30 40   Chn# 2  Pitchbend 48
[92054.883] e1 40 37   Chn# 2  Pitchbend -1088
[92054.883] e1 30 40   Chn# 2  Pitchbend 48
[92055.107] e0 00 37   Chn# 1  Pitchbend -1152
[92055.107] e0 60 40   Chn# 1  Pitchbend 96
[92055.999] e7 70 37   Chn# 8  Pitchbend -1040
[92055.999] e7 40 40   Chn# 8  Pitchbend 64
[92056.467] e7 30 36   Chn# 8  Pitchbend -1232
[92056.467] e7 40 40   Chn# 8  Pitchbend 64
[92058.623] e1 20 38   Chn# 2  Pitchbend -992
[92058.627] e1 30 40   Chn# 2  Pitchbend 48
[92058.827] e0 20 37   Chn# 1  Pitchbend -1120
[92058.827] e0 40 40   Chn# 1  Pitchbend 64
[92058.915] e5 70 36   Chn# 6  Pitchbend -1168
[92058.919] e5 40 40   Chn# 6  Pitchbend 64
[92059.059] e7 70 36   Chn# 8  Pitchbend -1168
[92059.059] e7 40 40   Chn# 8  Pitchbend 64
[92059.107] e1 70 37   Chn# 2  Pitchbend -1040
[92059.111] e1 20 40   Chn# 2  Pitchbend 32
[92059.443] e0 00 38   Chn# 1  Pitchbend -1024
[92059.443] e0 40 40   Chn# 1  Pitchbend 64
[92060.767] e1 00 37   Chn# 2  Pitchbend -1152
[92060.767] e1 20 40   Chn# 2  Pitchbend 32

 

If anyone has experienced something like this before, please help! what could be causing the buzz and the jitter. I've attached an mp3 of the noise and midi clicks I hear. I've also attached a pic of it put together.

THANK YOU IN ADVANCED!

Fader Noise.mp3

fader-bank1-8.jpg

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Hello Zeke

So...lot to say...welcome to the real world of digital electronic...

Have a search here, I talk a lot about this 4 or 5 years ago, that's why I give up the PWM driver and design an analogue PID motor driver.

You'll have to try to chassis ground fader metal part to minimize EMI leaking and motor sparkle

IIRC the SR scan at 1kHz for the touch detection also give me ugly noise at audio side, I partially solve this by lowering the refresh scan to 30 or 50Hz (which still fast enough for most situation)

Fader construction might also have impact of digital lines leaking to audio trace/wire. As how 0v audio is hooked at fader buffer side (that's another whole topic and maybe not the good place here to talk about)

 

Your recorded noise look like PSU hum and harmonics ?

 

Noisy supply + noisy digital lines + fast H-bridge switching + Motor EMI emission.

This is lot of tricky topic to solve if you want to put all this in analogue desk.

 

Best

Zam

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Damn, That is not the reply I was hoping for. I was hoping for - You forgot to do this... etc. LOL 

I'll do a search and try to chassis ground fader metal today but how do I lower the refresh scan to 30 or 50Hz?

 

 

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32 minutes ago, Zeke said:

how do I lower the refresh scan to 30 or 50Hz?

 

Somewhere in the code, but I don't remember where, it was long time ago :decayed:

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47 minutes ago, Zam said:

Somewhere in the code, but I don't remember where, it was long time ago :decayed:

code? :cry:

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4 minutes ago, Zeke said:

code? :cry:

yes.. for this you have to go one programming layer lower in the system ...

as for the great map/table that @TK. add by the time for the PIC/MIOS8, which offer possibility to "match" DAW fader value to real fader attenuation :happy:

Best

Zam

 

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OK, to be more constructive...

I just have close (zoom) look at your last picture with all the faders

Be sure to not share fader 0V at your sub25... each fader should have it's own ref closest as possible to buffer ref

Are the fader actually connected to console ? you should reduce at maximum the wire length

I suspect the whole digital side (MF_NG) is currently floating ? I'll definitely put a path to chassis ground/earth.

100n across motor leg should improve a little current peak.

 

As a global rules, as it is for console integration, I'll suggest to build the thing as close as possible to final integration, to minimise bad surprise at the end as loosing time to fix issue that will not happen in the proper frame/mechanical integration.

Best

Zam

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Thanks for your quick replies, they are much appreciated. As you know I am very much a newbie at this electronics stuff. Also to give you some background, my mixing desk isn't really a console. I'm using a bunch of channel strips as a mixing desk. I have 14x API 7600 channel strips (soon to be 16), 1x API 7800 Monitor section and 3x API 8200 summing mixer. They all interconnect with each other via a ribbon cable at the back of each unit. The API 7600 was made to be either a standalone channel strip or part of a modular console which you can build and buy over time (which is what I've done). The API 7800 and the 7600 has a port at the back to add a fader (see attached pics). I don't care to add a fader to the Monitor section as I like the big API knob it has. The summing mixer I don't have anything on that so I just use them as Buss returns or for things I don't think require out the boxing mixing. It's just the API 7600's I want to add the faders to.

To answer some of your suggestions, the dsub does not share fader 0V. I have wired it as per TASCAM pinout.

The MF_NG is floating and not grounded. I don't see how to ground it though. Usually I see a label on pcb stating the chassis ground and connect that to the chassis but I don't see that on this pcb and so I'm not sure where or how to do that.

I'm also looking into the code, I found the MIOS_SRIO_UpdateFrqSet in the main file. I guess I have to change the value to 30 and recompile the code?

API 7600 fader.JPG

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I've read most of the threads on this and checked and double checked my MF_NG board and still the same issue with the noise. I've come so far but that noise is terrible. I believe it is a grounding issue from the digital side (MF_NG). When I use the analog path of the fader there is no noise regardless of the fader ground or not. Here is what I tried today.

  • I've grounded the fader to the chassis, no change
  • I've grounded both J14 and J2 to the chassis, no change
  • I tried a different power supply, no change.
  • I unplugged the fader motor power supply from the board, still noisy
  • I unplugged the midi cables from the board to my midi device, still noisy.

I'm at a loss at the moment and I want to try and figure where the noise is coming from but I just have no clue where to look any more. My only thinking now is.

1. How do I ground the PCB chassis.

2. is it a good idea to ground the negative side of the power (J1) to the chassis?

3. Could the L293D be noisy? would a SN754410 be any better?

 https://www.mouser.com/ProductDetail/Texas-Instruments/SN754410NE?qs=AMJt07B76uuZ4Fb3eRjJ6A%3D%3D

Any help would be appreciated!

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