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MBProgramma: hardware synth patch programmer (MBNG variant with a defined hardware set)


Hawkeye
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it is completed or under developement ?

Admittedly, it has seen its up and downs, but it is not dead, yet :)
In fact, i use the prototype really often for some synths, most often for the Moog LP and quite often for the Ensoniq ESQ-1, and came to the conclusion that it is absolutely necessary to have a good hands-on (the i-pad is not sufficient for me!) controller for most hardware synths (as the manufacturers often focused on the sound engine and had to limit costs of the control surface). Of course, Behringer had a nice offer with the BCR2000 here, too, and it is impossible to compete, cost-wise the Programma is unfortunately in a very different league...

Hopefully, we will have a re-iteration with publicly available boards and a special MBNG version tailored to this specific hardware revision, so that it gets easier to build and set-up. Andy (who created some new boards a while back) is not yet totally burned out from PCB design, so we are somewhat confident, that there will be more to come :-).

Have a great evening!
Peter

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If you can do it in MBNG (i have not done it yet!), you can do it with this unit too.
The Programma will always be just a "unified" extension to MBNG with a "standardized" hardware set, so people can start exchanging templates for their synths.

Many greets,
Peter

 

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On 4/12/2017 at 5:07 PM, Hawkeye said:

... so people can start exchanging templates for their synths.

Many greets,
Peter

 

template / patches exchange is a so important option

it is possible do it "onfly" or require to stop the "main" sequencer (for avoid midi overflow/crash) ?

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...as i also wrote in the "MB only for experts" thread" ...

there is a chance that a single "controls panel" (the surface where rotary encoders , switches, etc.. are placed / connected)

"drive" a "dual core" MidiBox (1 core for sequencer and 1 for the NG synths controller )

switching / jumping between the 2 "cores" onfly to use for example in live performance , when during the sequencer "core" run the song ,

the control panel surface can be switched to the other "core" (synth controller) for real time sound edit ?

or it's required a "cross" switcher / device unit placed between the controls panel surface and the 2 "cores" ?

Edited by zener
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Switching the hardware connections is not trivial. Maybe it could work with three Cores: one SEQ, one NG and one to forward the control surface/display data.

To me it doesn't make sense as the hardware/labelling is specific to each. I think most people would prefer two separate units with dedicated controls.

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Just now, latigid on said:

Switching the hardware connections is not trivial. Maybe it could work with three Cores: one SEQ, one NG and one to forward the control surface/display data.

To me it doesn't make sense as the hardware/labelling is specific to each. I think most people would prefer two separate units with dedicated controls.

 ..... or the MidiBox SEQ Already includes dedicated  "page"  for synths (cc) parameters control  inside any midi track ?

reachable, with the "next page" "scroll" function , by the up-down-left-right switches or dial ,

 

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1 hour ago, latigid on said:

Thanks !!!

please correct me if i'm wrong :

in the  related image are showed only 4 slots for "cc" , also all the other "slots" can be set as "cc"on that page  ?

(to use it as synth programmer , where each midi track and related assigned midi channel

is a pre-configured synth controls layout template , ready to be used , and also copied to another track for control a similar synth or another sound patch inside a " multi or combi " of the same synth )

and  it is possible "insert" a second raw of 16 rotary encoders with lcd display , buttons etc.. for have direct control on more parameters ?

ps:

after a bit Depth look to that page , have to say that the Seq v4 have very lot of cool functions

but a single lcd display i.m.h.o. is not much a sufficient "interface" , no chance for a bit more large screen ?

Edited by zener
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20 minutes ago, zener said:

it is possible "insert" a second raw of 16 rotary encoders with lcd display , buttons etc.. for have direct control on more parameters ?

Not possible

20 minutes ago, zener said:

but a single lcd display i.m.h.o. is not much a sufficient "interface" , no chance for a bit more large screen ?

Nope

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One lesson learned over the years: never try to mix functionalities in one hardware box, if they can be separated, while the usecase might be perfect for you, it most likely won't fit for other people.

What you probably want is a MBSEQ for sequencing and (later on, when the project is finished, PCBs are available and the build process is documented) a MBProgramma (or any other MBNG variant) for synth patch editing.

Many greets,
Peter

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On 07 dicembre 2017 at 3:35 PM, latigid on said:
On 07 dicembre 2017 at 4:35 PM, Hawkeye said:

One lesson learned over the years: never try to mix functionalities in one hardware box, if they can be separated, while the usecase might be perfect for you, it most likely won't fit for other people.

What you probably want is a MBSEQ for sequencing and (later on, when the project is finished, PCBs are available and the build process is documented) a MBProgramma (or any other MBNG variant) for synth patch editing.

Many greets,
Peter

 

Thanks for the "lesson" Peter !!! (i'll keep it always in mind)

as you know (that i wrote in the MB only for experts)

First device i still really looking for and need is a synth programmer with  much rotary encoders as possible (32 but 48 would better)

+lcd displays (need to see to what is assigned to the rotary encoders for fast direct edit "action"),

theB SEQuencer is also a cool device , and the v4 more .. , in the list as project 2 ,

the MBHui was for a various years period in the Wish list , at the end aborted because too many issues with moving faders and no pro tools option, at the end got an online chance Avid Command 8 for 250 bucks saving lot of build hours placed to make music

but not much happy with Command 8 , too few rotary encoders for edit synths and a good part of fxs plug ins too  (: - ((

 I have also been "tempted" frequently to start a Sid , another very cool "toy" , but the fact to not be 100% sure to finish it :fear: ,

keep me to still use "quadrasid" vst (really not the same of MBSid but much near for that i need)

unfortunately after all  still to the "start" point   (: - ((

but never say never... and "Re-start"....

checked the start info page of MBNG http://www.ucapps.de/index.html?page=mbhp_core.html

and seem it support 128 rotary encoders and 2048 leds (cool...or i'm wrong?) ,

then 32 - 48 rotary encoders x 16 leds each = 512 - 768

About lcd display however  seem still  only 2 screens  (or i'm wrong :cry: .... , again ? )

http://www.ucapps.de/index.html?page=mbhp_core.html

more thanks !

Edited by zener
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...checked the start info page of MBNG http://www.ucapps.de/index.html?page=mbhp_core.html

and seem it support 128 rotary encoders and 2048 leds (cool...or i'm wrong?) ,

then 32 - 48 rotary encoders x 16 leds each = 512 - 768 

...

About lcd display however  seem still  only 2 screens  (or i'm wrong :cry: .... , again ? ) 

The Programma V1 prototype "uses" MBNG - and consists of 64 "pushable" encoders, 1024 LEDs and 24 OLED screens, these are even graphical OLEDs, that would allow to display nice additional informations, like envelopes, if there ever is the time to code that :), so no real limitation on screen real estate.

That's why i recommended you to build a MBNG if you want a great synth controller.

Or if you have the time, wait for MBProgramma V2 (that will be also and always be based on MBNG), that will have PCBs available and will be well-documented. It will just take (a lot) of time, but it is definitely on the TODO-list.

Good enough for a start-point? Imho you really need to decide on what you really want to do FIRST, is it a MBSID, a MBSEQ or a MBNG?
This thread here should be used primarily for Programma discussion...

Many greets,
Peter

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On 7.12.2017 at 0:07 PM, zener said:

..

 

switching / jumping between the 2 "cores" onfly to use for example in live performance , when during the sequencer "core" run the song

 

good point! its far better the ui is updated directly via srio then via midi sysex  cc or notes.. 32th blinking of 16x2 trigger indicatos bling and blang via midi making trouble...  for example i have connected a sequencer to a blm(acts as controller) but all trigger indicators are leds from the sequencer to give timed indication

 

isnt there any mb bus? from core to core

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29 minutes ago, Phatline said:

good point! its far better the ui is updated directly via srio then via midi sysex  cc or notes.. 32th blinking of 16x2 trigger indicatos bling and blang via midi making trouble...  for example i have connected a sequencer to a blm(acts as controller) but all trigger indicators are leds from the sequencer to give timed indication

 

isnt there any mb bus? from core to core

 

6 hours ago, Hawkeye said:

...checked the start info page of MBNG http://www.ucapps.de/index.html?page=mbhp_core.html

and seem it support 128 rotary encoders and 2048 leds (cool...or i'm wrong?) ,

then 32 - 48 rotary encoders x 16 leds each = 512 - 768 

...

About lcd display however  seem still  only 2 screens  (or i'm wrong :cry: .... , again ? ) 

The Programma V1 prototype "uses" MBNG - and consists of 64 "pushable" encoders, 1024 LEDs and 24 OLED screens, these are even graphical OLEDs, that would allow to display nice additional informations, like envelopes, if there ever is the time to code that :), so no real limitation on screen real estate.

That's why i recommended you to build a MBNG if you want a great synth controller.

Or if you have the time, wait for MBProgramma V2 (that will be also and always be based on MBNG), that will have PCBs available and will be well-documented. It will just take (a lot) of time, but it is definitely on the TODO-list.

Good enough for a start-point? Imho you really need to decide on what you really want to do FIRST, is it a MBSID, a MBSEQ or a MBNG?
This thread here should be used primarily for Programma discussion...

Many greets,
Peter

Many Thanks Peter ! 

…I'm re-checking the lot of docs about NG , cause as wrote synth programmer is always the n. 1 device i need to have (a.s.a.p.)

the SEQ for live performances is n.2 of the "list" as i like the "unconventional" cool options it have ,

but due to some limitations of the same , i have to keep using my Akai mpc 4k and 5k (Tanks….. ,  Mpc X still under "stress test") 

"Programma V2" (the evolution) ?  Nice news ! so interesting !

Great work about Oled displays !!!

 

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  • 3 years later...
On 12/8/2017 at 11:51 AM, Hawkeye said:

....if you have the time, wait for MBProgramma V2 (that will be also and always be based on MBNG), that will have PCBs available and will be well-documented. It will just take (a lot) of time, but it is definitely on the TODO-list.

Good enough for a start-point? Imho you really need to decide on what you really want to do FIRST, is it a MBSID, a MBSEQ or a MBNG?
This thread here should be used primarily for Programma discussion...

Many greets,
Peter

 

+ 1 here for "Programma V2"  !!!! :cheers:

 

 

Edited by wavewalker
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  • 1 month later...
14 hours ago, Hawkeye said:

@wavewalker - it has been delayed due to too many projects brewing in the kitchen :). Maybe, one day... :)

Best regards,
Peter

 

Thanks for the post !

" Maybe, one day " , mean never ?

as the "One" (showed in the video above )will be available used (at half price)

it won't make any sense to consider the "Diy" option ....

( ...just think to the quantity of time required to find all the parts + the assembly ,and then the settings ....)

cheers..

 

 

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If you think an available commercial device can fulfil your needs, then get one! DIY is a different thing. It is potentially more expensive and you have to put in the tools and effort to finish things, but the journey can be very rewarding and sometimes you can obtain tools that are not found elsewhere, often for the very reason that they would be impractical or uneconomical to produce in scale.

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On 4/7/2021 at 12:29 PM, latigid on said:

If you think an available commercial device can fulfil your needs, then get one! DIY is a different thing. It is potentially more expensive and you have to put in the tools and effort to finish things, but the journey can be very rewarding and sometimes you can obtain tools that are not found elsewhere, often for the very reason that they would be impractical or uneconomical to produce in scale.

Thanks for the post !

Devices for music production are for Music composers/producers/makers ( pro and hobby type )

for the hobbyists or enthusiasts , the Diy "way" can be ok , because they probably have free time to spend on it.... ,

for the Pro is different ,

as the time already never enough for music productions , ....let alone other things.....

frequently a necessary specific device like the (cool) MBProgramma is not available on the market ..

(..despite the fact that the marketing departments of the big companies are always on the alert )

and then the Diy (where possible) become the only one way,

but if it require more than a certain amount of time (unfortunately (always too little...)

becomes an option not possible (for "Pro") ,

without a technician capable in the matter ,

but considering the legitimate cost ,

too often "the game is not worth the candle" .

 

it would be relatively more simple ,  usable , with probably a funny part too ,
if it were like the assembly boxed stuff (at least for the hardware part).

 

The MidiBox projects ( all versions/types ) , and all the guys that develop their projects are a very very very incredible cool universe,

obviously TK included !

The MBProgramma is a target hit in full , 

as a very useful programmer for the too much software to use to make music is necessary , 

as a community that share the realization of the software patches be equally ,

pity that , its accessibility is not easy .

 

it is certainly not a novelty since the internet has spread ,

that it is common practice of many ,

 make devices to sell starting from prototypes , infos , etc..

found in the world of diy....

(..ok , it happened even before internet, even if in other ways.. ,

... probably as also for that on the video...)

cheers

Edited by wavewalker
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for me mios is a good starting point to get your vision going... since most of hardware near things are hidden in functions. i grow slowly into it - without any knowledge off uC, may the C guuro handle it faster - i needet a decade ( between work and free time)! however - good that midibox exist - thx.

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I was going to keep working on this on my end too, but demands from real life, work and family seriously got in the way. Plus, there’s always the risk of getting distracted by other geeky things near and dear... there’s always the risk of running into the next “ooh shiny” distraction.

That said, it needs some thinking about the 45degree OLEDs - it’s not necessarily practical; having a base board for displays, LED rings and encoders plus keys would make life easier. Now that MIDIphy has standardized on keyswitches and LEDs it’s a given to look for something in that style. Also, I saw a game controller joystick hat in some rendering of the upcoming BLM... That would be a nice to have for vector synths, quick setting of time/level envelope points and what not.

On the MIDI devices end a few difficult and rare synths have gotten editor support. The Ensoniq Fizmo has an editor and I expect to see something for the MR Rack soon-ish. Work is on-going for really odd and difficult things like the Technics WSA1. Everybody and his dog has made editors for the Alpha-Juno or Ensoniq ESQ, the cool thing would be the ability to support oddballs that are less represented. However, it’s way easier to prototype these things on a PC/Mac style platform first. Just controlling my MKS-50 or the Casio CZ-5000 or other synths with a more basic tone generator would make me happy. Shooting for the Kawai K5000 or the Yamaha FS1r isn’t as easy.

Here’s hoping for something as well as more time to spend moving forwards!

Edited by jojjelito
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