SID "Clones" List/Sources/Experiences

[Noise-Generator]

On 4/16/2021 at 2:35 PM, dwestbury said:

I don't know about the rest of you, but for me, the SID Clone wars are over and the clear winner is ARMSID.

1. The sound is very close to the real deal, in either 6581 and 8580 mode. IMHO, it's even better than the SwinSID Ultimate (listen to examples above in this thread)

Yes, I would say this too atm.

I don't agree that a DSP SID is better than a real one but it's handy.

I've built up my Freesid but there is still just a "prototype alpha" emulation. ADSR Bug, No Filter...so I have to wait for someone coding one.

[m00dawg]

Better is relative depending on your goal. If your goal is a SID-like sound, but you can't find any real SIDs, the various alternatives are certainly better than no SID at all :) Especially if you want to find matched SIDs for stereo pairs or want to populate an entire MB6582. I'm quite fortunate I bought several when Wilba found that stash of 6582's but I am still working out some random bugs in my 6582 build.

I do wonder, MBSID itself supports CV so curious about some sort of external filter solution that might approximate the gritty filter of the SID itself. That would help bridge the gap between the alternatives by having some sort of analog filter.

[Noise-Generator]

Right, it's just my personal opinion, everybody can do what he wants to and DSP SIDs do have their advantages but it turns the MBox SID just into an VA and if you would redesign the Box to a DSP Synth with much more Power you could just emulate the SIDs inside. From the view of engineering it's kind of uneffective to use an 8bit PiC and drive up to 8 32bit emulated 8bit (and some analog stuff) Synthesizer Chips . 

I will build this LC module next weeks to drive a moog ladder filter http://ucapps.de/mbhp_aout_lc.html and who does'nt know, this one is the best one http://www.midibox.org/dokuwiki/aout_ng

If you choose to build or buy Filter, watch out that CV to Resonance is implemented, this seems not to be usual. The MFOS supports http://musicfromouterspace.com/index.php?MAINTAB=SYNTHDIY&PROJARG=VCFJAN2006/VCFJAN2006.html&VPW=1356&VPH=787

The easiest way is to use a Korg MS20 Filter, buy a monotron duo for 50 Bucks and put audio in (no cv) I have one but the MS20 Filter is not very "fancy".

The problem about those emulated SIDs is, that they have enough power to emulate a good and or "fitting" filter for the SIDs but they are build for C64 Lovers and so they should sound like the real ones, so the FreeSID or KickSID would be the candidates to implement own filter models. Problem is just it's not easy for someone who has no expirience to build one.

 

 

[m00dawg]

Well in a way I suppose, though with a real control surface with is just sooooo much nicer (for me anyway) than a VST.

[Rio]

I have the armsids for two main reasons: I see them as quite passable replacements in case all my SIDs break down, and with regard to the 6581, the armsid might be a better choice as I can never find suitable filter pairs with the originals can. The 8580s, on the other hand, are quite stable.

Edited April 22, 2021 by Rio

[Rio]

On 4/22/2021 at 2:38 AM, Noise-Generator said:

Right, it's just my personal opinion, everybody can do what he wants to and DSP SIDs do have their advantages but it turns the MBox SID just into an VA and if you would redesign the Box to a DSP Synth with much more Power you could just emulate the SIDs inside.

I think the term VA is not quite right, but yes it is no longer a real SID and an emulation is running. Nobody hears the difference in productions anymore. I think this is more about the aspect of using these 'retro' chips (including me) than just the pure sound.

.. and of course, adequate respect should be paid to all developers who deal with the chips and their emulations.

Edited April 23, 2021 by Rio

[Noise-Generator]

A DSP Synth always behaves the same, it's static and yes, it's possible to emulate the behavior of analog components, too, but analog stuff mostly have some magic, proven or not, true or not.

Also, analog has no latency. These are ms or us but the sum count. They also react to heat and all this stuff makes analog the analog feeling. 

But don't get me wrong, I did work and still work a lot with emulations and they are super handy and sound great but      I do understand the analog lovers every day a little bit more.

I rather emulate a C64 instead of a SID

 

[Rio]

... but SID isn‘t analog, only the DAC Part inside, right?

Edited April 23, 2021 by Rio

[dwestbury]

2 hours ago, Rio said:

... but SID isn‘t analog, only the DAC Part inside, right?

To the best of my knowledge, the only relevant analog aspect of the SID is its filter.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/MOS_Technology_6581
"...Each voice may be routed into a common, digitally controlled analog 12 dB/octave multimode filter..."

 

Edited April 23, 2021 by dwestbury

[Noise-Generator]

Yes, in the definition of analog synthesis. But the digital parts are "analog". So switching is based and influenced by physics not by algorythms. Why it does get warm?

[Rio]

Yes, without a doubt, I understand what you are referring to ..

.. and otherwise we would hardly have dreamed of making a box with sound chips from old home computers.

 

 

 

Edited April 24, 2021 by Rio

[Noise-Generator]

Oh yes, in the early 2000s I always wondered how I could use a Game Boy or C64 with Midi... I had a Hardsid some weeks but it was not a good feeling to have them in my Computer always getting powered altough I did not used them anytime I just made PC Stuff, so I resold it and used emulation instead.

[Noise-Generator]

Still need to talk about that

On 9/27/2020 at 9:03 PM, Noise-Generator said:

"No big deal. It's the same thing with all the stereo SIDs. You need to connect J14 of the second SID module of a Core to the additional input of the SID. I show you but you need to figure it out for the mb 6582.

 

http://ucapps.de/mbhp/mbhp_8xsid_c64_psu_optimized.pdf"

It is not true what I said about that, it depends on the model. It is a little bit confusing and here is why:

 

The MBoxSID uses 1 Core for 2 SIDs and they share these pins and each have an separate serial input from the core:

But a "regular" Clone SID has just 1 Serial in. The confusing thing is that some offer extra inputs for C64 connections (extra "A" ins) which seem to be useless for the MBSID.

 

So, if a SID Clone offers Stereo sound, and doesn't have a second serial in (which only seems to have the ARMSID 2), than it seems just be possible to double and emulate the second channel by one serial input and that means you have kind of pseudo stereo (which you could also do by mono to stereo the analog output) and also no polyphonic possibility.

 

(As far as I understand this, no guarantees, pls discuss)

[Rio]

 

On 4/23/2021 at 6:19 PM, dwestbury said:

To the best of my knowledge, the only relevant analog aspect of the SID is its filter.

BTW: Is the armsid filter section purely emulated or analog? and are the filters just as sensitive as the original (regarding electrical damage)?

Edited April 29, 2021 by Rio

[dwestbury]

@Rio Given that the ARMSID is basically a STM32 MCU, I would think the filter has to be a digitally emulated with DSP algorithms.

With that said, you should be able to expect all ARMSID instances to be "digitally consistent", with no wear or degradation concerns over time.

@Martin Lukasek thoughts?

 

Edited October 5, 2021 by dwestbury

[Noise-Generator]

No SID Clone is out there with an analog filter or they would advert or at least mention it because this is special. It's all DSP = Digital Signal Processing, what is also everything your VST/AU or Standalone Software Synths or Virtual Analog Synths like Virus do. The only thing which is analog is maybe the (kind of) vca or better the (end) amp stage which is a transistor or op amp.

(I killed a swinsid and it behaves like a dead sid, no more amplification, but you can hear it still generates waveforms very silent)

But it's not too complicated to use an external or midibox sid controlled vcf, it's implemented but you need a cv out module and hack some code.

As I said, the easiest way is to put the audio out of the sid through an external filter.

Edited April 29, 2021 by Noise-Generator

[Rio]

Yes, mbsidv2 supports external filters by aout modules. I had done that in the past but then removed it again.

How did you kill a swinsid??

Edited April 29, 2021 by Rio

[Noise-Generator]

12 or 9v at the 5v lane 

[Rio]

Ok... 

[Rio]

12 hours ago, Noise-Generator said:

12 or 9v at the 5v lane 

but the PIC survived, right? the workhorse...

[Noise-Generator]

Killed two Pics, too but not the same time I guess. But also by overvoltage. Last week I found out that you can run a 6581 with 9V and I guess the 8580 survives 12V at the 9V pin  (This scenario happened but it took not very long until I recognized it, so no guarantee...)

[Rio]

You did circuit bending. 

[Manu29]

Hello,

I just powered up my first MB6582 It is populated with 2x8580 and 1xARM2SID (FW version 3.13 beta 1) and so far I haven't wired the feedback potentiometer (the audio input in set to ground). I made a quick comparative on some sound with the note C3.

The first impression is that the output level on the ARM2SID is slightly lower and the sound seems a little less "dynamic" to me, but the sound is very very near the 8580's.

I made some screenshots so I took advantage of the community. On each screenshot there are 2 curves yellow is right chanel and green is left chanel (or reverse i have a doubt). For each sound there are 2 files with 8580_Axxx for the 8580 and arm2sid_Axxx for the ARM2SID

The files are here : https://1drv.ms/u/s!AnXdHJlFJcdsgRdKS749wPlVvd03?e=3xBHQj

Manuel

[Rio]

wasn't it the 6581 emulation that had more bang?

[m00dawg]

Well I grabbed up an ARMSID dual socket. I've spent a few days messing about with my MB6582. I was getting some odd crackle on one of the channels but only after it had been warm-ed up for a while. Since I don't use it in 8 SID monster mode all that often, I decided to pair it down to 2 real SIDs. But I'd still like to have another pair to play with drums and things or a bassline. I was just getting nervous hearing about the supply of SID dwindling I thought I'd better not needlessly have them sitting there largely doing nothing.

I'm looking forward to it! Anyone know of the ARMSID avoids the ADSR bug (as in might drums be easier to use?)