jaytee Posted October 3, 2021 Report Share Posted October 3, 2021 On 4/23/2021 at 1:29 PM, Noise-Generator said: Yes, in the definition of analog synthesis. But the digital parts are "analog". So switching is based and influenced by physics not by algorythms. Why it does get warm? With all due respect…this is pretty ridiculous. *All* digital hardware is made with analog parts—it’s transistors all the way down. *All* electronic hardware, digital or analog, warms up in use—no electronic component is perfectly efficient; they’ll all have waste heat. The SID isn’t running DSP algorithms, but that doesn’t make it any less digital. (Arguably it’s *more* digital, as modern DSP can produce waveforms that are basically indistinguishable from analog, while the SID…doesn’t.) All this about the SID’s analog filter having some “magic” that a DSP emulation lacks… The SID filter sucks, y’all. Especially the 6581 filter, with the wimpiest resonance I’ve ever heard in my life, but even the 8580/6582 filter is nothing amazing. It does its job but lacks any of the character people love vintage synths for—and fwiw, even those character-ful filters like the Moog ladder or TB-303 are emulated pretty nicely in DSP these days. It’s funny because if you go back about a decade or so, one of the primary concerns among the MIDIbox SID community was how to improve the lackluster analog filters! We tried swapping out the filter caps, trying different values and dielectrics. TK added CV control to the MB SID to allow for much beefier external filters to be used. Seppoman built a PCB for installing SSM2044 filters internally. And the MB-6582 has those feedback knobs which serve primarily to overdrive the filter and improve the resonance—*anything* to give the crappy filter a little more oomph. Now, of course, none of this is to say that the SID emulations sound as good as the originals. That’s a subjective measure, and everyone’s entitled to their opinion of course. But let’s not start with talk of how analog is “magic” or how 80s digital is somehow “more analog” than 2020s digital. It’s silly. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwestbury Posted October 3, 2021 Report Share Posted October 3, 2021 (edited) 5 hours ago, jaytee said: ...The SID isn’t running DSP algorithms, but that doesn’t make it any less digital. (Arguably it’s *more* digital, as modern DSP can produce waveforms that are basically indistinguishable from analog, while the SID…doesn’t.) All this about the SID’s analog filter having some “magic” that a DSP emulation lacks… The SID filter sucks, y’all. Especially the 6581 filter, with the wimpiest resonance I’ve ever heard in my life, but even the 8580/6582 filter is nothing amazing. It does its job but lacks any of the character people love vintage synths for—and fwiw, even those character-ful filters like the Moog ladder or TB-303 are emulated pretty nicely in DSP these days... I think you made the point yourself. The SID isn't running a DSP, it has an actual analog filter, which for all its warts, has still enabled all those chiptune musicians of yesteryear to produce some amazing and iconic tracks. I doubt anyone would argue with you regarding the quality of the SID's filter, relative to the higher quality and more modern options out there. Personally, I like the consistency and predictability I get by using an automation controlled filter within my DAW. It's definitely a preference thing. Further up in this thread I did a side-by-side with the 8580, the ARMSID and the SwinSID Ultimate. IMHO, they all sounded good in isolation, but comparatively, the real SID has a bit more air and sparkle in the higher frequencies, which is part of the character I love hearing. Guessing that this could be replicated with more complex DSP programming, if it was really desired. Finally, doubling down on some of my earlier comments, I've been messing with ARMSIDs for several months now and I definitely think they're a great alternative. I'm buying them in batches these days, for retro C64 repairs and MIDIbox builds... Edited October 3, 2021 by dwestbury Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted October 3, 2021 Report Share Posted October 3, 2021 (edited) 10 hours ago, jaytee said: All this about the SID’s analog filter having some “magic” that a DSP emulation lacks… The SID filter sucks, y’all. Especially the 6581 filter, with the wimpiest resonance I’ve ever heard in my life, but even the 8580/6582 filter is nothing amazing. It does its job but lacks any of the character people love vintage synths for—and fwiw, even those character-ful filters like the Moog ladder or TB-303 are emulated pretty nicely in DSP these days. It’s funny because if you go back about a decade or so, one of the primary concerns among the MIDIbox SID community was how to improve the lackluster analog filters! We tried swapping out the filter caps, trying different values and dielectrics. TK added CV control to the MB SID to allow for much beefier external filters to be used. Seppoman built a PCB for installing SSM2044 filters internally. And the MB-6582 has those feedback knobs which serve primarily to overdrive the filter and improve the resonance—*anything* to give the crappy filter a little more oomph. Now, of course, none of this is to say that the SID emulations sound as good as the originals. That’s a subjective measure, and everyone’s entitled to their opinion of course. But let’s not start with talk of how analog is “magic” or how 80s digital is somehow “more analog” than 2020s digital. It’s silly. I feel like I need to defend SID's filter a little here. You mentioned subjectivity and I think that easily applies to the SID filters - or any filter for that matter. The SID filter is what it is. I'm not sure any filter is better or worse. My OB-6 sounds BEAUTIFUL but it in now way sounds remotely close to a SID, never will. I have Seppoman's boards and a few SSM2044 chips ready for whenever I finally get around to building an AOUT module and the audio demos of the SID + 2044 sound glorious! But I'd also argue, it sounds a lot less SID-like. Sounds sort of like its own synth in its own right, perhaps as it should. But it doesn't replace SID's quirky filter. I love it for what it is, not what it isn't. Edited October 3, 2021 by m00dawg Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Noise-Generator Posted October 4, 2021 Author Report Share Posted October 4, 2021 11 hours ago, jaytee said: With all due respect…this is pretty ridiculous. *All* digital hardware is made with analog parts—it’s transistors all the way down. *All* electronic hardware, digital or analog, warms up in use—no electronic component is perfectly efficient; they’ll all have waste heat. Yes, maybe it's not related "there". Not really "there" But it would be interesting to know how exact the unexactness happens. Old digital/analog combination suffered from influences like electromagnetic fields - bad or "not perfect" isolation distorting the signal path, digital to analog converting, amplifiying, indifferences... Do all SIDs sound the same? Differences in the newer ones 8580, 6582, not much to recognize, Revisions of 6581s measurable? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted October 17, 2021 Report Share Posted October 17, 2021 My ARM2SID arrived today yay! And I have to say it DOES sound good for being an emulation. Only trouble is, despite verifying ARMSID is setup in socket mode, as soon as I put on a patch that has different settings between L/R (such as a Bassline patch), audio drops out on the SID socket and I only here occasional clicks and crackles from that. I've tried swapping L/R in the app (I'm using minicom with the Arduino Tester program), SID emulation modes, tried swapping which socket the main chip is in, tried moving them both to another pair of sockets in the 6582, tried switching the direction of the included molex cable, but nothing seems to fix it. Anyone else run into this issue? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwestbury Posted October 17, 2021 Report Share Posted October 17, 2021 (edited) @m00dawgyou might want to connect with @Martin Lukasekfrom Retrocomp. There’s a Beta firmware for ARM2SID that contains some fixes and features for the MB-6582 (see below). Faster start Corrected FM Drums Faster interrupt response, when CS requests come into two sockets independently Auto-switch to mono mode is disabled by default (adjustable in the config tool) a2sid313beta3_nomono.zip You'll need a working C64 to use the above PRG file. ARM2SIDArduinoUpdaterFirmware_312-313b1-313b3.zip You'll need the Retrocomp Arduino shield to use the updater above (this was covered earlier in this thread). He's very interested in feedback from the MIDIBox SID community... Edited October 22, 2021 by dwestbury Added files Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted October 17, 2021 Report Share Posted October 17, 2021 Ah yep good call. I wasn't sure if it was a quick fix. I'm worried it's something with the cable connections but when I ran wires to the 2nd socket (I did all that on a breadboard), both SIDs were detected. Though it could be firmware - I'm noticing it'll do stereo if the filter isn't involved. I gotta say, since I have 8580's (well I have one precious 6581 from my actual C64), I forgot how deep the filter is on the 6581's. Turn it to 6581 mode was quite a treat! 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 Update to the above, yep, I contacted Martin and it did indeed require using the Beta firmware. I flashed the chip, popped it in and now I have delicious stereo SID pair goodness! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwestbury Posted October 21, 2021 Report Share Posted October 21, 2021 (edited) On 10/17/2021 at 12:39 PM, m00dawg said: Update to the above, yep, I contacted Martin and it did indeed require using the Beta firmware. I flashed the chip, popped it in and now I have delicious stereo SID pair goodness! Cool - glad to hear it helped - thanks for confirming... I've edited my post above to include the beta firmware for anyone else that runs into the issue. Edited October 21, 2021 by dwestbury Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted October 22, 2021 Report Share Posted October 22, 2021 Ah good deal! I wasn't sure if sharing the direct BINs (as opposed to the C64 PRGs) was allowed but Martin was kind enough to send me those for directly programming it from the Arduino Shield. Hindsight, using a shield is a lot easier I'm sure but the breadboard method did work. I got it setup just in time too as my SSM2144 Eurorack filter (the Electrosmith) came in so I could finally mess around with some bassline patches (albeit not in stereo as I only have 1 filter). Both the ARM2SID and my 8580 pair sounded pretty great with a VCA and the filter. The real SIDs have a bit more "charm" but being 8580's, the ARM2SID has a really nice filter emulation by comparison. Not as good as my actual 6581 but I know if I cough too close to that thing it'll die :P and it's awfully noisy compared to the ARM2SID. Most of this has already been discussed above so I'm just rehashing what's known. For the filter though, yeah it works! Since I am not using AOUT I have to control the Eurorack bits via a MIDI CV (Mutant Brain) but it's not too bad to mess around. The one thing I did seem to notice is the ADSR bug seems faithfully replicated and/or I haven't found a way to properly sync the drums and turning the ADSR bug workaround off/on does have an affect. Not having to mess with that would be nice but it's not the worst. I can (and have) just sampled the drums directly it just takes more effort. Apart from the initial setup bumps, that's my only "gripe" and I use quotes because it's sorta unfair to complain about such an issue when it's faithful to the original! I expect I'll populate my MB6582 with at least one more ARM2SID pair. I think that'll be a good balance (4 8580's, 4 ARMSIDs) 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dwestbury Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 Someone on YouTube recently posted a nice and detailed side-by-side sound comparison of an 8580R5 with an ARMSID. The ARMSID is running the latest firmware, so the tests should be accurate. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
m00dawg Posted October 31, 2022 Report Share Posted October 31, 2022 I'm liking mine! Though I will admit I use the real SIDs more often. I still haven't sorted out why the right channel doesn't always work (only for real SIDs and it doesn't matter which ones) in half my MB6582 sockets. I have the real SIDs in channel 3. ARMSIDs are in 1. Side by side, I still notice a lot more interesting stereo affects using the real SIDs. But the ARMSIDs are certainly cleaner and clearer. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
engineer Posted October 17, 2023 Report Share Posted October 17, 2023 I wonder which of these emulators comes close to the original? It is no prob to emulate the SID's digital hardware and general behaviour, but the analog components of the chip together with the C64 / VIC20 output appear to have a relevant impact to the sound too. http://www.96khz.org/htm/sidemulation.htm Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
acfnews Posted August 5 Report Share Posted August 5 Hi All, I understood the following in the 'retrocomp.cz' website: 15 June 2024 - new ARMSID firmware 2.16 One of the changes I noted was the capability of using the ext-in with this firmware. I really like that, but this feature is not yet available on the ARM2SID I have on my unit, but after checking with Martin, he replied that this is in the works and will be released also soon... I am looking forward for people able to test this feature, the results of the audio quality, and mods needed... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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