MIDIbox SID control surface, step B

TK. · May 28, 2003

For all who can't wait to hear the monster sound of 4 SIDs, turn on the soldering iron, build some SID and core modules and try the new release of MIOS based MIDIbox SID V1.4 Step B :-)

But also for people who can life with a single SID this update makes fun:

patch upload issue solved - no inconsistend bank data anymore when you update to MIOS V1.2 (required for this SID version)
Pitch range can be changed (was missing in the last version)
Patch name, MIDI channel and device ID can be edited
local mode allows to send CC data via MIDI in order to automatize parameters changes (now you can record filter sweeps with your MIDI sequencer program)

And here the feature list for the master/slave solution:

up to 3 additional core/sid pairs can be accessed from the control surface
message protocol is compatible with the PIC16F877 version of the SID (V1.4)
One BankStick for all cores to simplify the patch exchange
spectacular stereo effects are now possible :-)

http://www.ucapps.de/mios/mios_v1_2.zip

http://www.ucapps.de/mios/midibox_sid_v1_4_18f_stepB.zip

http://www.ucapps.de/midibox_sid_cs/sid_csB_connections.gif

http://www.ucapps.de/midibox_sid_cs/mbhp_sid_joined_audio.gif

http://www.ucapps.de/midibox_sid_cs/sid_csB_connections.gif

May 28, 2003

*drool*

Steven_C · May 28, 2003

OK Thorsten,

are you sure you don't have a secret pcb assembly plant in your house somewhere??

This stuff is amazing!! I really don't know how you do it all so fast!!

I'm having fun playing around with my LC BTW, but it will be a number of months before I have time to build SIDs like these monstrosities ;D

have fun with your Synths.... you know Aphex Twin used to build his own synths too, maybe you will get picked up by a record company some day!! ;)

bye, from Steve

lemonhorse · May 28, 2003

Hallelujah! ;D

LO · May 28, 2003

mmmmmmmmmmm.........mmm....

oh sorry I think i just ..... :o

pay_c · May 28, 2003

... yesssss ...

already built 3 SID-modules, having two cores. Guess what Im bulding next...

... yes again ... *happyjumpinginmyroom*

d2k · May 28, 2003

damn T, this wudda been a worthy post for ur 1000th!!! :))) ... Now what will that be ??? ;D :o

Xanboroon · May 28, 2003

Yesssss !!!! Great Work TK...

I just buy a new C64 on eBay today for 2.5 Euros ;D.

d2k · May 29, 2003

;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Had to smile... got the quad SID/BStep beasty roarin'!!

After reading a post suggesting to re-use the ol C64 case - i've done this: (may be useful to any others doin the same with regards as to where place sockets etc..)

SIDE PANEL: Bankstick/MIDI LEDs/Power Switch

http://www.notapplicable.co.uk/mbhp/mb_qsid-control/image01.jpg

REAR: DC In/Fuse/MIDI in/out

http://www.notapplicable.co.uk/mbhp/mb_qsid-control/image02.jpg

TOP: Overview

http://www.notapplicable.co.uk/mbhp/mb_qsid-control/image03.jpg

REAR: Stereo in/out on 1/4" Jacks

http://www.notapplicable.co.uk/mbhp/mb_qsid-control/image04.jpg

REAR: Sep SID Outs using minijacks

http://www.notapplicable.co.uk/mbhp/mb_qsid-control/image05.jpg

LCD: On a 4x20

http://www.notapplicable.co.uk/mbhp/mb_qsid-control/image06.jpg

THE INNARDS

http://www.notapplicable.co.uk/mbhp/mb_qsid-control/image07.jpg

Bit of a sqeeze here n there - but it's all good so far ;p and WOW stereo SID is the1!!!! :))))

Best...

Dan //

smashtv · May 29, 2003

Sweet..... ;D

I can't wait to see the finished top panel!

Smash

May 29, 2003

Hey D2K! This is exactly what I wanted to do for my MB+ :) It's gonna be looking cool as hell hehee

May 29, 2003

Hmm maybe more cool as ice since Hell wasn't that cool last time they checked lol

jeroddumas · May 29, 2003

Looks like I'll be building a SID or two ;D ;D

TK. · May 30, 2003

Thanks for the applause! :D

I feel that the new system gives me the possibility for advancing to new sound dimensions ;-)

Yesterday I made some experiments with a virtual vocoder (which comes with Reaktor). I used two SIDs for the carrier input, and the other two SIDs for the modulation input. As a result I get mostly dissonant, but sometimes also very expressive, organic sounds - by tuning the pitch, pulsewidth and LFO parameters the combination of 4 patches can change from very ill to extreme impressive (I'm still exploring the coherences ;-))

Dan, if you would like to have some fun, start Reaktor, connect the vocoder Fx between Audio In and Out and try following patches:

Carrier: "P15 Sync Pad" and "P7 Simple Pulse"

Modulation: "P18 Arpeggio" and "P49 Neutron"

You can either assign all SIDs to one MIDI channel, or play them on 4 different channels (which makes it even more interesting)

Try different octaves and chords (-> arpeggiator)

Take care for your bass speakers! ;D

For extreme percussive sounds, try "P31 Metal" and one of the "WT" drums as modulation source

However, If I would have the time, I would begin with Step D immediately - nothing better than direct access to all parameters without those button-click-click-click-origies ;-)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

d2k · May 30, 2003

Hey T....

Heh. i'm still yet to get that deep on the possibilties - been having fun just pressing a single a note and hearing the 4 sids singing ;p

However, If I would have the time, I would begin with Step D immediately - nothing better than direct access to all parameters without those button-click-click-click-origies

Can't wait for that day! full-on control is gonna be awesome!

Best...

Dan

nebula · June 2, 2003

I'm anxious to start building this, however I would really like to put the 4 cores and 4 sids on to 1 board. I think I should be able to minimize redundant parts in this way, i.e.:

Only 1 each of 5V and 12V regulator should be required,
Should be able to take the 1 MHz clock from one core module and split it between all 4 SIDs, eliminating 4 x 1 MHz oscillators,
Only 1 opto would be required for the MIDI in,
Only 1 rectifier and one set of filter caps required for the entire power supply section,
Chance to omit all of the SIP and ribbon connections, as well as to leave alone many of the unused PIC pins for this application, saving board space,
Keep the audio mixing section for all of the SIDs on one circuit board.

I'm hoping to be a little ambitious and create a PCB layout that will put all of this stuff together, and be easy to etch by not including tracks that run between IC pins (i.e. no less than 1/10 inch spacing).

Thorsten, can you tell me if there are any unexpected "gotchas" I can expect to run into? What worries me most, I think, is whether I will be able to input MIDI to 4 PICs using just one opto, and whether I can split up the core's 1 MHz clock output without causing excess loading. Would there be any advantage to using the same clock on all the SIDs, like phase coherence or anything?

Also do you have any other suggestions about stuff I could eliminate by putting this all together?

TK. · June 2, 2003

Hi Nebula,

Only 1 each of 5V and 12V regulator should be required,

ok - the overall current drain of 4 cores, 4 SID modules and the LCD + backlight is about 400 mA, so the 5V and 12V voltage domain can also be supplied by two regulators only.

Should be able to take the 1 MHz clock from one core module and split it between all 4 SIDs, eliminating 4 x 1 MHz oscillators,

this doesn't really make a difference, but it's ok. Note that neither the master, nor the slaves are exactly synchronized.

Only 1 opto would be required for the MIDI in,

yes, the optocouplers of the slaves shouldn't be mounted anyhow, since they are connected via the "MIDI Link" port to the master core

Only 1 rectifier and one set of filter caps required for the entire power supply section,

rectifier and filter caps before the 7805/7812: ok

but the filter caps near by the PICs and SID should not be left out to prevent unwanted signal noise on the power lines.

Chance to omit all of the SIP and ribbon connections, as well as to leave alone many of the unused PIC pins for this application, saving board space,

yep. In this way you cannot use the core modules temporary for other projects, but for people who want to build a SID synthesizer and nether touch the hardware again, this is a good solution.

Keep the audio mixing section for all of the SIDs on one circuit board.

ok

I'm hoping to be a little ambitious and create a PCB layout that will put all of this stuff together, and be easy to etch by not including tracks that run between IC pins (i.e. no less than 1/10 inch spacing).

don't forget to publish your layout when it is up and running! :)

Thorsten, can you tell me if there are any unexpected "gotchas" I can expect to run into?

I don't see problems so far

What worries me most, I think, is whether I will be able to input MIDI to 4 PICs using just one opto,

Only one optocoupler is required. I just noticed that this has not been documented yet :-/

and whether I can split up the core's 1 MHz clock output without causing excess loading. Would there be any advantage to using the same clock on all the SIDs, like phase coherence or anything?

No, there is no advantage so long as you are using the PIC clock (it's just a 1:1 wire connection). But it should work. And to confuse you completely: it could be an advantage if an external oscillator is used, because these parts are expensive --- but the MIDIbox SID provides a clock output, so this is no issue. ;-)

Also do you have any other suggestions about stuff I could eliminate by putting this all together?

you haven't mentioned it, but I guess that you already planned to left out the backlight supply circuit (transistor + 2 resistors) for the slave cores.

R10 is not required for the MBSID application, and the resistors for the MIDI Out line are only necessary for the master core (the MIDI out of the slaves is useless)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

nebula · June 3, 2003

Thanks Thorsten. I will get started on this, and of course once I have something that looks do-able I will of course share it with everyone! ;D

Another question, and a suggestion: I am very anxious to see Step D: the complete surface. Am I correct in assuming that this will all interface with the master core module, and will not require another PIC? I suppose that type of thing is where the extra horsepower of the 18F shines :)

The suggestion: I was looking at the front panel you have created, and noticed that there is a "select button" that lets the user decide which of the 4 SIDs they will be remotely controlling. While this is great, will the control surface have the ability to control multiple SIDs with one knob turn?

For example, what if I set the unit up with a monster layered patch, and then wanted to adjust the filter in real-time on all 4 SIDs. Could that be done? I wonder if it might make sense to, instead of having one button to select SID # 1-4 sequentially, to have four separate buttons, each of which toggles whether you are controlling that respective SID.

So you could press 1 and 2 (toggling them both to "on) and then be controlling both at the same time; then later you could press 2 again (toggling SID 2 to "off") and your controller is left to only control SID 1.

I realize this might be somewhat more complex in software, however could probably make for some really great ways to use the unit live.

d2k · June 3, 2003

Hey Neb...

Yes, i thought a single board would be a good idea too!! How's about doing one so it'll be able to fit an exsisting C64 case ;p including mounting holes. some midi leds wudnt go a miss either - just use that section from the LTC module...

Am I correct in assuming that this will all interface with the master core module, and will not require another PIC?

Yup, as far as i know :)

While this is great, will the control surface have the ability to control multiple SIDs with one knob turn?

Again i think so - i'm using the SID logic enviro now and it effects all four SIDs similtaneous when params are adjusted ;) - supreme sid fatness !!

Peace...

Dan

TK. · June 3, 2003

Hi Nebula,

yes, StepD requires no additional PIC. The software already has been prepared for the whole thingy, I only need to build the hardware before I'm able to complete the integration.

For example, what if I set the unit up with a monster layered patch, and then wanted to adjust the filter in real-time on all 4 SIDs. Could that be done? I wonder if it might make sense to, instead of having one button to select SID # 1-4 sequentially, to have four separate buttons, each of which toggles whether you are controlling that respective SID.
So you could press 1 and 2 (toggling them both to "on) and then be controlling both at the same time; then later you could press 2 again (toggling SID 2 to "off") and your controller is left to only control SID 1.
I realize this might be somewhat more complex in software, however could probably make for some really great ways to use the unit live.

Hmmmm... yes, you are right.

The implementation is very easy, I only have to insert a loop into the CS_MENU_SendParameter function (cs_menu.inc), so that parameter changes are sent to all selected SIDs.

Thanks for the input! :)

Good that I haven't started with my panel yet... ;-)

Btw.: Dan - with a simple trick it is already possible to control all SIDs from the control surface at the same time. First you have to change the firmware so that the MIDI merger is not switched off in Local mode (the upcoming release will provide a switchable option for the MIDI merger) - in cs_menu.inc replace

CS_MENU_Init_SID
        ;; enable/disable MIDI merger depending on local mode
        movlw   MIOS_MIDI_MERGER_ENABLED
        btfsc   CS_MENU_SID, 2
        movlw   MIOS_MIDI_MERGER_DISABLED
        call    MIOS_MIDI_MergerSet

by

CS_MENU_Init_SID
        movlw   MIOS_MIDI_MERGER_ENABLED
        call    MIOS_MIDI_MergerSet

Thereafter enter the Local mode. Every parameter change of SID1 will no be sent as CC message, and every slave SID which is assigned to the same MIDI channel like SID1 will receive the parameter changes :)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

d2k · June 3, 2003

Hey T..

Btw.: Dan - with a simple trick it is already possible to control all SIDs from the control surface at the same time.

Yeah, nice but i find it easier from within logic atm and using a controller to handle the sid cc's. I only inc/dec buttons on the SID (no encoders yet :() so controlling stuff with buttons on a prototyping board isnt very productive ;p I should be gettin some encoders soon tho so the proper playtime waits till then...

Ta

Dan

pay_c · June 6, 2003

Hey TK,

just finished building my SID (so far with two 6581). Plugged it in and played it. The first time I checked if I hadnt accidentally played my Virus B. Dammit no! It was that SID! Really rocking piece!

Now for some questions:

- sometimes if you trigger a note, the SID is playing it kinda false. Kinda very disharmonic. If you retrigger the same note, its still there. If you hit another one, its ok again. Whats that?

- With longer Attacks and other things (like pitchchange), it can happen, that the SID "clicks", again: huh?

- I tried out to get an external sound in there (with the Audio In). I hardly heard it on full volume (was a Rm1x Phone Out). What input specs are needed? btw: I did switch to external input already.

Just wanted to let you know these problems.

But still: SID's rocking well!!!

June 12, 2003

I had read an article on the engineer who designed the SID (Bob Yannes?). His original intent was to make an inexpensive version of the oberheim 4-voice. Currently, as best I can tell, the SID is only polyphonic by having each of the 3 oscillators play one of 3 notes at a time.

Is it possible to implement 4 SIDs as a single 4-voice instrument, so that if one were to play 1 note, the first SID would play, and if two notes were held down, then the second SID would sound, etc. up to 4 voices?

I'm not sure if this is asking too much of the hardware/firmware but it would sure be cool to make a 4-voice SID! :)

TK. · June 16, 2003

Hi Pay_c,

Hey TK,
just finished building my SID (so far with two 6581). Plugged it in and played it. The first time I checked if I hadnt accidentally played my Virus B. Dammit no! It was that SID! Really rocking piece!

:)

Now for some questions:
- sometimes if you trigger a note, the SID is playing it kinda false. Kinda very disharmonic. If you retrigger the same note, its still there. If you hit another one, its ok again. Whats that?

this can have several reasons, but not because of a firmware error, but because of the sound setup. For example, if three voices are oscillating with exactly the same frequency, you will only hear the superposed result, which mostly doesn't sound very interesting. And depending on the other parameters these effects can occur with different notes.

If it was your intention to play a thin sound, just disable oscillator 2 and 3. Or if you want to play a fat sound (unisono effect like known from the Virus), change the finetune parameters of osc 2 and 3, and assign one or two LFOs to the pitch to prevent the overlay effects.

- With longer Attacks and other things (like pitchchange), it can happen, that the SID "clicks", again: huh?

thats an imperfection of the SID chip. :-/

- I tried out to get an external sound in there (with the Audio In). I hardly heard it on full volume (was a Rm1x Phone Out). What input specs are needed? btw: I did switch to external input already.

I just tried this with the Line Out of my RM1x - no problem. But I noticed that the polarity of the "Ext" flag is wrong. Means: you have to "disable" the external input if you want to hear the sound. I will fix this in the next release.

Best Regards, Thorsten.

TK. · June 16, 2003

Hi Antman,

I had read an article on the engineer who designed the SID (Bob Yannes?). Â His original intent was to make an inexpensive version of the oberheim 4-voice. Â Currently, as best I can tell, the SID is only polyphonic by having each of the 3 oscillators play one of 3 notes at a time.
Is it possible to implement 4 SIDs as a single 4-voice instrument, so that if one were to play 1 note, the first SID would play, and if two notes were held down, then the second SID would sound, etc. up to 4 voices?
I'm not sure if this is asking too much of the hardware/firmware but it would sure be cool to make a 4-voice SID! :)

several poly, unisono, layer and split modes are planned :)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

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MIDIbox SID control surface, step B

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