gavgomad Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 Hey all!Jai: I don't think there's much point cloning them when they're so readily available at such a low price ...Just to clarify, JH's clone is of the 2040 and not the 2044. The 2040 is THE Holy Grail VCF on a chip, if not THE Holy Grail VCF period. Fat, warm, and the Xpander switch trick can be used to get any number of responses out of it. The quality of the ICs was notoriously sketchy (no output protections, so one false move and ZAP!), and they're unobtainium now (lest you look REALLY hard and have a minimum of $40 US to splurge on a single IC!).2044 is a GREAT chip, but only 4-Pole LP, and totally different filter topology than the 2040 (brought in to replace the 2040 as Moog sued - I guess Bob was concerned about being "out-phatted"? ;D)The discrete version looks great, but requires CLOSE matching of the trannies, and accordingly is expensive if you are using pre-matched pairs (see the MOTM version, which is based on the JH clone).Looking forward to that 3372 page Wilba! A 2044 is a better 4-Pole LP, but to have an Xpander filter with VCA x8? I'm up for some of that! :DGavin. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrBunsen Posted October 6, 2007 Report Share Posted October 6, 2007 BA662's / same chip used in the 303 / basic design can be ripped straight from the 303! / IR3109, that is in fact a complete on-chip filter. Just the caps and a few resistors are external And those values could be found by poking around inside a JunoIf you were happy to use a work-a-like VCF/VCA combo, you could easily sub in any number of designs in there. How about if it were possible to find som SMT transistors and stick in a Moog filter and BA6110 VCA ;)VCF and VCA onto a single chip [i assume you mean module] / that can be used for Midiboxing. / a clone of the TB's / a drop-in replacement for old Juno chips. Imagine a Juno with a discrete moog-style filter! I'm picturing a socket, with replaceable filter modules. I'm hearing a Juno with 303 filters. I'm thinking of software switchable filter modules. I'm seeing the ($)-($) from selling working 8007a's to fund this. I'm picturing an MKS that sounds like nothing else on this earth.OK, so who had that macro of Homer Simpson drooling? Because that's the sound I'm making now.Would they even need to be SMT trannies? Because there's a stack of room inside my MKS :)I wouldn't mind a (or a even a pair) of SSM2044's / I can't really afford to fork out for those 12 on fleabay right nowWanna go halves? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Davo Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 True, but not quite good enough. There are no markings on the IC's, and the board is double sided...If you fiddle with the picture, you can see the markings. They're not readable, but they're there. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaicen Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 If you fiddle with the picture, you can see the markings. They're not readable, but they're there.Haha, that's brilliant! Doc, the idea about the replaceable filter modules is spot on, it's exactly what i'm planning. I made a start on the Moog VCF last night, using SMT components, so it's very small!! The pinout matches the 80017 IC's so it should be plug and play, more or less, in a Juno. All the adjustment trimmers are on the main pcb in this case, which makes things much simpler. I'm trying to get all the VCF stuff on one side, so the other side can be reserved for the VCA if needed (as in the Juno). However, i'm not sure my layout skills are quite up to the task, so it might have to be double sided to fit it all in. It would be very easy to integrate some SM2044's into the juno in place of the original filter, just the chip and a handful of caps and resistors would do it. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryd_one Posted October 7, 2007 Report Share Posted October 7, 2007 Gav: I know, but Jai was talking about the 2044W: I meant, you quoted my question but playbo$$ answered it already :) We needed that link in here for sure though, danke! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert lowell Posted October 21, 2007 Report Share Posted October 21, 2007 just bought a juno 106 off e*ay for $140.00 in mint cosmetic and mechanical function except it has the 80017 problem. i have get out the service manual and find out how many chips are bad. so anything new on this??? i have two ba6110s laying around.edit :: oh well its only one bad chip, just gonna buy the clone on e*ay. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Jaicen Posted October 22, 2007 Report Share Posted October 22, 2007 I've not had much time to work on my own filter clones yet. If you've only got one bad chip, and for the price you paid it wouldn't be too bad to get it replaced. In time, it's likely that the others will fail too though, which is something to consider. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
robert lowell Posted October 22, 2007 Report Share Posted October 22, 2007 i bought a clone from this guy on e*ay - $65 US. will test further and let you know how it sounds after i replace it. it was either buy a new clone or buy another time bomb, errr. i mean a used roland chip for $70 + shipping. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrBunsen Posted July 27, 2009 Report Share Posted July 27, 2009 I just discovered this post on Matrixsynth about a possible method for repairing dodgy 80017a boards. Essentially you soak it in acetone (nail polish remover) until the epoxy comes off. That's it :oThe chips I've "rescued" so far I have put in my constantly-powered-on HS-60 for over a week and checked them twice a day and all of them no longer had any popping or cracking or cut-outs or runaway resonance or any of the classic failure modes of the 80017a.Considering how useless the faulty modules are, and that you'll have to desolder them to replace them anyway, could be worth a shot.I'll just repeat these here for convenience:A good 80017a replacement walkthroughGuitar Synth Repair Tips has pdf links for calibration, schematics inc 106, MKS30To check which voice IC is bad, do this: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvooh Posted July 29, 2009 Report Share Posted July 29, 2009 i know the creator of the voiceclones quite well http://www.analoguerenaissance.com/D80017/These are the only clones you can trust AFAIKall the other clones are rediculous and sound different.he told me the acetone method doesn't really make sense, tried it on a few chips, didn't work, could have lots of dangers: acetone soaks in plastic and remains there (the surface will evaporate), after a while it will come loose inside the synth, killing all your fader traces. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Futureman Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 he told me the acetone method doesn't really make sense, tried it on a few chips, didn't work, could have lots of dangers: acetone soaks in plastic and remains there (the surface will evaporate), after a while it will come loose inside the synth, killing all your fader traces.hahahahahahah!!!! don't make me laugh....While acetone is a nasty solvent... it sure as hell won't "come loose inside the synth, killing all your fader traces".... hahahahaohhh.. I'm still laughing... my drink came out my nose..Sounds like your mate is scared that a possible solution that costs $2 might kill some of his business off.RegardsMike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvooh Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 yeah whatever.laugh all you want. everyone does when they hear this.. I hope your scientific knowledge greatly exceeds his, yet I doubt it. Makes you wonder why smart people like you haven't made a clone up to the quality of what he has built. And why every other voice clone chip behaves totally different (and sounds different) and is pure fraud?At least try an effort at understanding.I would explain it better if my english were a bit better, right now I can't really do better than "it will come loose inside your synth". Sorry about that. But I wouldn't be suprised.I guess Acetone soaks really deep into materials like the chip coating and than gradually evaporates over time (because it's not directly in contact anymore with air). The damp coming out of it, how small it is, could easy eat the traces of your faders.Just like spraying contact spray on one side of a synth could in time ruin all the faders and/or other components?Done laughing? I'm done explaining.What I think is way more funny, is that you could magically fix a chip by soaking it in a solvent. Alright there could be something thermodynamic going on in the reaction that would cause the pcb to increase/decrease in size (and thus maybe fixing any broken traces, but that's not really the problem with most of these broken voices).Some say that the original voices run too hot, but that's also BS.There seems to be more than one failure reasons for the original voices, and the clone builder has been studying and fixing them for years. Starting off with a VCA only clone in 2003, because with some voices it's only the VCA that fails. You can read that on his old siteSo far, NOBODY that I know who has tried the acetone method has done so in succes. (and i've been also following some forumthreads about it)Although I have read quite a few positive experiences from people I don't know (youtube comments).So yeah. If someone would like to try it, please do and post back your experience, but keep in mind the residu story alright? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Futureman Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Acetone is a solvent, and evaporates very very easily.If you "washed" your synth in it, sure, it will wash away the lubrication in the faders and they will feel a bit ratty with no grease in them.. Not sure what you mean about eating the traces, but acetone doesn't do much to copper traces on a PCB.The .0001 Parts per billion that will be floating around inside your juno is going to have the same effect as your neighbor filling up the petrol tank of his motorcycle next door to the room you keep your juno.. ie.. none.I've got no reason to bag out your mate and his filter clones, good on him.. I bet they sound brilliant.. but using some form of scare tactic to avoid people trying a possible fix (Hell, the chip is coming out, so you might as well try the $2 solution) bugs me.RegardsMike Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvooh Posted July 30, 2009 Report Share Posted July 30, 2009 Acetone is a solvent, and evaporates very very easily.i knew that.i need to be exposed to air though to evaporate.If it soaks inside a material, it needs time to "come out of it"If you "washed" your synth in it, sure, it will wash away the lubrication in the faders and they will feel a bit ratty with no grease in them.. Not sure what you mean about eating the traces, but acetone doesn't do much to copper traces on a PCB.I mean the traces in the fader. Not the lubrication. Not the PCB traces.sing some form of scare tactic to avoid people trying a possible fix (Hell, the chip is coming out, so you might as well try the $2 solution) bugs me.he's not using this scare tactic anywhere. I confronted him with the acetone method and after research and unsuccesful tests he added that it might be dangerous for the faders in your synth. He hasn't commented on any of those acetone topics officially.If there's anyone using this "scare tactic" it would be me. But the only thing I'm doing is warning people and advising them to dry the chips for days in direct sunlight before replacing them.Hell, I don't use his clones myself, I sourced some original voices for free for mine and they still work fine. However I'll never do the acetone trick as I just dont trust it will continue to work over time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrBunsen Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 I sourced some original voices for free for mine and they still work fine. However I'll never do the acetone trick as I just dont trust it will continue to work over time.And yet you're happy to replace with chips you know will fail in time?I'm not advocating or recommending the acetone method, just reposting an interesting curio. It's up to Juno owners to make their own judgements about their own equipment. But given that they're removing components which have already failed, what's to lose?Your suggestion about allowing several days to dry is a sensible precaution. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvooh Posted August 3, 2009 Report Share Posted August 3, 2009 And yet you're happy to replace with chips you know will fail in time?hehe sure, I got them free and now the chips are socketted so I can put in a clone some day when I can afford sustainability.I'd just not recommend this for people taking their Juno's along for live gigs.But given that they're removing components which have already failed, what's to lose?not much more but time. and maybe if you don't let it dry out well, your faders. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rvooh Posted August 9, 2009 Report Share Posted August 9, 2009 as it's semi on-topic,just a bump to say his site has changed today, new version of all the productshttp://www.analoguerenaissance.com/D80017A/he also has the MC5534A wave generator ic cloned now:http://www.analoguerenaissance.com/D5534A/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DrBunsen Posted August 9, 2009 Report Share Posted August 9, 2009 he also has the MC5534A wave generator ic cloned now:Hellooooooo MIDIbox Juno clone 8) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nILS Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 [me=nILS]checks the queue[/me]Neh, sowwy. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted August 12, 2009 Report Share Posted August 12, 2009 I just discovered this post on Matrixsynth about a possible method for repairing dodgy 80017a boards. Essentially you soak it in acetone (nail polish remover) until the epoxy comes off. That's it :oYou gotta love that guy's LED ladder filter! Moog should totally have used LED's instead, to give it that "warm" look! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sebo Posted January 24, 2010 Report Share Posted January 24, 2010 Hi all: I finally did the acetone bath to some 80017a. I took the coat away of 3 chips using acetone and 2 of them worked OK. The third one, worked too, but not quite right, the VCA worked, but the VCF behaves strange, the resonance have little effect and the cuttoff have a non linear response (very weird). Anyway 2 of 3 is a good number. Now I have 5 coated working voices in my Juno, and 2 uncoated working voice for a total of 7, this left me with a spare voice. I will start to decoat the working voices one by one to prevent them from failing in the future, and if something goes wrong I will stop decoating and still having 6 working voices. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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