Antichambre Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 Maybe I'm wrong but... I think that if Wilba and Smash Tv can not or no longer want to produce and distribute the PCB, it would be wise and kind to leave the design to the community ... Simply :) Did someone ask them? Best regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK. Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 This has been tried, but without response - otherwise the clone wouldn't exist. Best Regards, Thorsten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antichambre Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 Hi Thorsten, Obviously, but... Who? You did yourself? Your request and concern should have surely more weight. Best regards Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK. Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 I tried to contact Wilba multiple times since several years and never got a response. Lisa tried to contact SmashTV multiple times - also no response. I assume that Lisas clone will work, it just needs a prove before it will be provided as open source. Best Regards, Thorsten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antichambre Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 Oh that's a shame...I suppose they want nobody to make money with it... But in the same time, everything is protected from commercial use when published here, I suppose too. Then... Lisa, Julian I'm always in :) Best Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zam Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 7 minutes ago, Antichambre said: But in the same time, everything is protected from commercial use when published here, I suppose too. Then... Hello Theoretically, but what can do a small community or a lone designer if stolen, law pursuit is not free... Then you have to technically prove it and have access to the pcb using the stolen (hardware) design. All around Midibox and other great DIY community not many complex PCB manufacturing files are available, it's a good practice, and in fact the safer solution to protect things. Still the concept, shemo, build threads and many info OPEN to anyone. I'm always sceptical when discussions complain about what is not available when you'll find hundreds pages of info and ready to use design concept. In french we say "the butter, the money of the butter, and the ass of the farmer..." if the translation make sense Now TK is clear here, the PCB designer is free to release the manufacturing files..., he just ask a restricted proto run to ensur, everting is fine, it's just some respect to potential builder for less issue possible, as respect to all the community which will take time help to troubleshoot... At my side I take more than two years and thousands bucks designing a tool around midibox system, then more than 6 month crash test before a release (without manufacturing files) so I completely understand Wilba and Tim and all other spending so much time to make things possible. @TK. nice to see you again around the forum, summer holiday ? Best Zam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Antichambre Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 (edited) 1 hour ago, Zam said: In french we say "the butter, the money of the butter, and the ass of the farmer..." if the translation make sense C'est pas franchement demander le cul de la cremiere! 1 hour ago, Zam said: I'm always sceptical when discussions complain about what is not available when you'll find hundreds pages of info and ready to use design concept Among all project that there is here, it's not just one of them but one of the more and maybe the most important one! A positive or a negative answer. Just an answer that "It's a good practice" ;) By providing Gerber files(after CAM Process) to only one person in charge to distribute it here only. ->Keeping for them source PCB layout file is the best proof for protection. ->It's letting this project alive... Nobody is enough stupid to commercialize exactly same pcb design. So why?.. Then TK came and answered to all my questions. But, Yes! It doesn't matter. The important is to let people building this machine. Best regards Edited August 1, 2017 by Antichambre Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jaytee Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 10 hours ago, TK. said: I don't understand why you are discussing this - of course, Lisa can give the files to Julian. Best Regards, Thorsten. I don't understand either. This is exactly what I was telling Lisa earlier in the thread before @Hawkeye told me I was wrong to have suggested it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK. Posted August 1, 2017 Report Share Posted August 1, 2017 If we've the same understanding, we can stop the discussion now. Looking forward for the boards! :) To interested builders: please keep in mind that LatigidOn is working on a new front panel with some improvements: Wilba's design is interesting for people who already prepared this variant, or don't want to wait until the new one is ready (can still take some weeks/months). Best Regards, Thorsten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye Posted August 2, 2017 Report Share Posted August 2, 2017 14 hours ago, TK. said: If we've the same understanding, we can stop the discussion now. Absolutely. Jaytee, if you really want to discuss further, send me a message via the forum mailer so we keep this thread clean. But maybe better not. I really don't like discussing with people, who have done nothing for the community, but demand everything and quote license texts and stuff that did not even apply, when the boards in question were made. Regarding future PCBs and gerbers: if they are not open-sourced from the beginning, my old suggestion still stands: make it mandatory for MIDIbox creators to deposit gerbers @TK. (and TK. only), before any PCB is sold. This might solve a lot of problems in the future, while still protecting the hard work people put into their work. Using this method, we would not have the problem with the SEQ CS PCBs and still have the great MBLRE boards available for general use, they are now lost in time. Best regards, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjonas Posted August 3, 2017 Report Share Posted August 3, 2017 19 hours ago, Hawkeye said: Jaytee, if you really want to discuss further, send me a message via the forum mailer so we keep this thread clean. But maybe better not. I really don't like discussing with people, who have done nothing for the community, but demand everything and quote license texts and stuff that did not even apply, when the boards in question were made Peter, this part of your message was unnecessary to air in public. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye Posted August 3, 2017 Report Share Posted August 3, 2017 jjonas, Yes, you are right! It was unacceptable, and i openly apologize for the unnecessary attack on a personal level. I have also written a private message to jaytee apologizing again and explaining the background a bit.. You know me as a friendly and helpful guy, that usually does not react that strongly. Just to explain: what ticked me off in the end was the statement, that "waiting for an answer from TK. is not necessary". Of course it is. Regardless of all license texts, if they apply or not, it is just good conduct to wait for a reply from the project creator. Many greets, Peter Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jjonas Posted August 4, 2017 Report Share Posted August 4, 2017 Thanks for this Peter! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted August 4, 2017 Report Share Posted August 4, 2017 (edited) Normally I would automatically defend MIDIbox and hiss at any mentions of board files going public. But honestly I can understand the frustrations of users on here. There has been a complete lack of transparency for a good while now. Personally I think how its being handled is a mess, and could be handled a lot better considering the community is dying each week. TK to say that Smash wsa contacted by Lis0r with no reply and leave it at that is a bit unfair as you know there is a lot more going on behind the scenes. It just makes him look bad or ignorant. This lack of transparency has also lead to a lack of transparency on Smash's behalf also. I'm not going to go against your wishes and expand on any of this publicly, I just think the community would benefit from knowing what the hell is going on since there has been a total lack of supply of boards, and its turning people away from MIDIbox. Edited August 4, 2017 by Smithy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK. Posted August 4, 2017 Report Share Posted August 4, 2017 What exactly is non-transparent here? Initially Lisa wanted to buy the frontpanel PCB from SmashTV. She had already many parts (such as the expensive Heidenreich case) and was waiting for appr. 1 year to get it re-stocked. She asked SmashTV multiple times on the progress, but without luck. Under frustration she developed a (I find: pretty cool!) method to reconstruct the layout. She asked Wilba (the creator of the layout) and me (the architect of the circuit) for permission, and got it for the small batch run. If it turns out to be a mature design, it would be ok for me to publish the layout. From my point of view, this is the natural result if PCBs are not stocked anymore, people already invested into hardware, waiting until they can buy the final part from the official source, and don't get updates on the status for an extremely long time. It's on SmashTV to give a statement on the situation from his point of view. This thread exists since more than 3 months, but we haven't got it yet. Best Regards, Thorsten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted August 4, 2017 Report Share Posted August 4, 2017 3 hours ago, TK. said: What exactly is non-transparent here? Its not what is in this thread that is non-transparent, but the behind the scenes. I feel too strongly about MIDIbox and I think I'll just take a step back on this and let whatever happen and not get so invested anymore. People who don't know whats going on in the background won't understand it anyway so there's no point in discussing it further. I just think the whole mess that's been going on a few years now could have been handled better with more open communication. BTW, I'm all for alternative PCBs like lis0r's and Andy's to see the light of day. All I want to see is people continuing to enjoy their MIDIboxes and be inspired and creative with them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK. Posted August 4, 2017 Report Share Posted August 4, 2017 We continue via PM (and a HQ meeting in 3 weeks :) And we will communicate a more plausible explanation about the future handling in a separate thread once this has been sorted out. Just to make it clear again: there is nothing wrong with this bulk order, and I really hope that it will happen! Best Regards, Thorsten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julianf Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 Ive been trying to pick up snippets, but am still left confused - The midibox code is open source, right? I assumed the hardware was also? Ie if i realise that there is an error in the mb6582 panel file, I'm not to just keep this to myself, but to publicise it, so as the rest of the community benefits, right? Indeed, i thought i was obliged to to this? Am i wrong here? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mongrol Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 The code source is open for personal use only. It's not "Open Source" in the normally understood terms, in that you can modify and redistribute it. It's a shame really, I'd love to hack on it but I can't redistribute a modified version so I'm not going to bother putting the effort in. No idea about hardware licensing, I have a bad enough time with software. :) /runs to hide after potentially opening a new can of worms. :) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK. Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 2 hours ago, julianf said: The midibox code is open source, right? I assumed the hardware was also? Ie if i realise that there is an error in the mb6582 panel file, I'm not to just keep this to myself, but to publicise it, so as the rest of the community benefits, right? Indeed, i thought i was obliged to to this? It depends under which license terms the hardware is released. The creator of the MB6582 panel layout preferred not to publish the file. But if you find an error, I'm sure that we find ways to fix it for the community. Does this handling cause a problem at your side? 1 hour ago, mongrol said: The code source is open for personal use only. It's not "Open Source" in the normally understood terms, in that you can modify and redistribute it. It's a shame really, I'd love to hack on it but I can't redistribute a modified version so I'm not going to bother putting the effort in. No idea about hardware licensing, I have a bad enough time with software. :) I feel personally attacked when you write that the way how I release my work is "a shame". You misinterpreted the "licensed for personal non-commercial use only, all other rights reserved" term. There are even ways to use my code for commercial products with my permission, see also http://midibox.org/forums/topic/5359-rules/ Same question: does this cause a personal problem at your side? Best Regards, Thorsten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Zam Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 1 hour ago, TK. said: I feel personally attacked when you write that the way how I release my work is "a shame". Man.... for sure it hurt I don't get the way this discussion go so far. Please fellas, just stop complain and criticism. OPEN YOUR EYES a look at what you have access for FREEEEEEE here. And for all things not "open" or not "yet, at the second" available, it's just a matter of YOUR work if you want it to happen. Best Zam Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julianf Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 Quote Does this handling cause a problem at your side? Members of this group are about to be asked to "risk" money on an untested pcb, when a confirmed good copy of the same exists, and has existed, for years. I find this very confusing, given my (possibly inaccurate) assumptions as to the community benefit nature of the project. I find page 4 of this thread almost beyond description. You can, I'm sure, understand my concern. http://chipmusic.org/forums/topic/11096/midibox-swinsid/ Is there anywhere where i can clarify the exact terms of the licence / licences, such as there can be no errors made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK. Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 1 hour ago, julianf said: Members of this group are about to be asked to "risk" money on an untested pcb, when a confirmed good copy of the same exists, and has existed, for years. I find this very confusing, given my (possibly inaccurate) assumptions as to the community benefit nature of the project. I can fully understand this, and this will be discussed (I'm also not happy with this situation) But please give us the time - PM or forum postings won't help to come to a conclusion. Best Regards, Thorsten. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ilmenator Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 Julian, will you make the cut files available so that anybody with a CNC router can reproduce your frontpanels? Or would you rather people start from the frontpanel drawings that have been created in the past? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
julianf Posted August 5, 2017 Report Share Posted August 5, 2017 Just now, ilmenator said: Julian, will you make the cut files available so that anybody with a CNC router can reproduce your frontpanels? Or would you rather people start from the frontpanel drawings that have been created in the past? As i understand it, i can not fail to supply any files that i hold that are derivatives of open source projects. Do you disagree with this? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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