Defining microtonal/custom scales?

[gatesphere]

Hi all,

I finished up my SeqV4 build this weekend (what a smooth project!).  This thing is incredible.

Reading through the manual, and there's a really good chance I missed it, I don't see the ability to define custom scales.  I like to play with microtonal music sometimes, and would love the ability to define a custom scale for the FTS function.  For example, I'm interested in 16EDO (16 Equal Divisions of the Octave) which has 16 notes per octave compared to the normal 12.  This can be emulated in MIDI with pitch-bend messages -- for example, the C-16EDO chromatic scale would be (based on some arduino code I've hacked together in the past):
 

PitchBend 0    NoteOn C-3    // C3   +0 cents
PitchBend 3072 NoteOn C-3    // C3  +75 cents
PitchBend 2048 NoteOn C#3    // C#3 +50 cents
PitchBend 1024 NoteOn D-3    // D3  +25 cents
PitchBend 0    NoteOn D#3    // D#3  +0 cents
PitchBend 3072 NoteOn D#3    // D#3 +75 cents
PitchBend 2048 NoteOn E-3    // E3  +50 cents
PitchBend 1024 NoteOn F-3    // F3  +25 cents
PitchBend 0    NoteOn F#3    // F#3  +0 cents
PitchBend 3072 NoteOn F#3    // F#3 +75 cents
PitchBend 2048 NoteOn G-3    // G3  +50 cents
PitchBend 1024 NoteOn G#3    // G#3 +25 cents
PitchBend 0    NoteOn A-3    // A3   +0 cents
PitchBend 3072 NoteOn A-3    // A3  +75 cents
PitchBend 2048 NoteOn A#3    // A#3 +50 cents
PitchBend 1024 NoteOn B-3    // B3  +25 cents

Now, I'm pretty sure that I could figure this all out in the CC layering... but is there an easier way to do this already?

And if not... how do I humbly put in an enhancement request for a custom scale editor (that includes pitch-bend info per interval)?

Edited May 14, 2018 by gatesphere
Comments

[goyousalukis]

You can post feature requests to this topic:

http://midibox.org/forums/topic/13137-midibox-seq-v4-release-feedback/

TK checks that regularly, and often comments on ideas.

I know there was mention of a scale editor in the past, but I think the idea was to be able to chose chromatic scale, not micro-tonal.

[gatesphere]

Thanks!

[Hawkeye]

Regarding the feature, of course TK. needs to answer to it, but methinks, that the SEQv4 internal note storage is organized as classic MIDI notes (0-127). Thus, allowing for microtonality would require a few extensive changes to the SEQ... I.e. to allow to enter microtonal notes (using the encoders or a microtonal capable input device), the datastructures would need to be upgraded or a new "microtonal" tracktype be implemented, as well as the note data display and the playback engine (sending pitchbends with the notes) would need to be modified. TK. can tell you more, but i guess it would be quite some work. All of this is just an uneducated guess though! :)

Many greets,
Peter

[Antichambre]

1 hour ago, Hawkeye said:

Regarding the feature, of course TK. needs to answer to it, but methinks, that the SEQv4 internal note storage is organized as classic MIDI notes (0-127).

Yes Peter is totally right, MIDI norm is based on 12 notes by octave and 128 value range, the problem will be to input and name your special note scale. It's not the box but it's MIDI itself which is not made for that :/
But I suppose it's possible, by adding new value and name tables and a special function to read it, after that by transposing or octave shifting your will be able to achieve all your scale e.g. 16 interval by octave is something like 169 notes for the same frequency range of the MIDI.
TK will tell you ;)
 

[gatesphere]

I've worked with midi for years, I know it's not really made for microtonal stuff... and I'm not looking for anything super polished, either!  I just think it would be handy to be able to define a 'scale' that also sent out pitch-bend info.  A kind of glue-track thing, I guess.  Having played more with the SeqV4 last night, I do understand why the architechture would make this quite a bit of work.  Thanks for the insight though!

Edit: Thinking about this a bit more, it doesn’t make the most sense to have this as a part of the Seq, but rather as a stand-alone box.  Maybe something can be hacked together to simulate the basic functionality of something like the H-PI TBX1/2...

Edited May 15, 2018 by gatesphere
Thoughrs on an outboard microtonal tubing box.

[gerald.wert]

You might be able to do it in NG where you do you sequencing in the sequencer then do a midi translation to the microtonal scales you want with pitch bends in NG. depending on how many octaves you are looking at you should have a good bit of room to play with in the existing structure. Maybe a bit clunky but should be functional.

[Zam]

Hi

I also think there is a something possible with NG

-individual event receiver definition for each notes forwarded to two sender, one for note one for PB

-or a global receiver (note=all) forwarded to two sender (note and PB) with conditional according to receiver note value

Best

Zam

 

 

[latigid on]

MPE has now been standardised:

https://www.midi.org/specifications-old/item/the-midi-1-0-specification

Anyone keen to write MIDIbox drivers for it ? ;-)

[Antichambre]

54 minutes ago, latigid on said:

MPE has now been standardised:

https://www.midi.org/specifications-old/item/the-midi-1-0-specification

Anyone keen to write MIDIbox drivers for it ? ;-)

Ahah! trop fort! Tu l'as trouvé.

Uploaded : rp53spec.pdf

Always check and follow the MIDI standard ;)

Best

[gatesphere]

The NG looks really interesting.  I think I have to build one now...  Has anyone come up with an enclosure for an NG core, 1/2 MIDI IO boards, and say, an LCD and a couple of encoders & buttons?

I hacked together a small Arduino-based MIDI event interceptor last night.  Downsides is that it has no control surface and therefore limited to the exact firmware I flash, but that's not a super big deal to me.  But it would be neat to have something I could dial up a preset on without having to reflash.  And something more beefy than an Arduino.

[b_d]

+1 for this microtonal feature please!!!

Thanks

Graham

[modus0perandi]

yes, ill vote this up too. would be awesome and a nice magnet for more users i bet.

[Antichambre]

Tell me if I'm wrong, the subject is very interesting for me too...
It seems to me that microtuning is only possible if the synth allows it, MIDI note mapping is generally done on the synth side, there is nothing to do on the controller side than to send a note.
The problem with the @gatesphere's method (Note + pitchbend) is that it will not allow polyphony, only mono, because each note will require its own pitchbend value, a synth voice can receive several notes but only one single pitchbend .
This trick only works if you send one note at a time and if they don't overlap, so no chord is possible on the same voice. It already makes this feature less attractive, no?

Best regards
Bruno

Edited June 13, 2020 by Antichambre

[Hawkeye]

As posted two years ago, i'd still think adding a completely new note system with support for microtonal scales within the SEQ V4(+) sounds technically difficult, as all data structures would need updating. But if i am not totally wrong, the solution with sending normal MIDI notes in conjunction with the pitchbend layer should already work now in the SEQ without any software change? It's just yet a bit difficult to use, as the microtonal pitches would just need to be entered by hand as a pitch-bend layer on top of the normal note sequence?

So, i might be wrong, but would think the SEQ can technically already do it, but we primarily don't have a convenient way to record microtonal sequences there, yet? To connect some dots... we're currently working on the 16x16+X BLM successor codenamed "MatriX" :) - every user would then have a huge 16x16 key matrix available for use with the SEQ - if @TK. would agree to the general idea, this hardware extension might be used to record these microtonal note sequences in a special entry mode? So basically, the MatriX would know about the microtonal scale(s) and would record on the SEQ on two layers at once - on the note layer, and on the pitch bend layer - problem solved? :) I'd be interested to investigate this - so, a question: how could for example a 16-EDO microtonal scale/note system be mapped to a 16x16 key matrix for easy/human understandable inputs/note playing? Inputs would not be velocity sensitive, but that's probably good enough - velocities are always easy to edit within the SEQ itself - just would need to turn a few encoders in the velocity layer.

Many greets and have a nice sunday!
Peter

PS: I'd also be really interested to explore those microtonal sequences - mostly to be able to explore new melody possibilities with normally unheard note pitches :). - it would be interesting to see how microtonal sequences could be mixed with standard-note sequences. Potentially you could make some really interesting basslines or lead melodies, if they used mostly "normal" notes, but would "detune" a few notes to achieve microtonal pitches - so just that the ear/brain keeps wondering what special uncommon note(s) it just heard :).

2nd PS: @Antichambre, i would not be worried too much about a limitation to a single synth voice per MIDI channel. Most polysynths can enter multimode, where you could assign multiple "same" patches to different MIDI channels - so this solves the problem, if you really need chords on a single polysynth. If that seems difficult to use, there's still the option to break the chord down to a very quickly played arpeggio, like it was done in the good old chiptune times (due to a lack of polyphony of e.g. the SID chip) :).