The MB6582 Panel Group Buy : FINALLY!!

[Twin-X]

As far as Purusha, why dont you have him quote panels in that size with 140+ holes and see if it will be less than the cheapest one he sells (which is 100 euro, $146 as of today)

Alt this is not entirly true.

I did quote him but people here voted for your source as it was cheaper and quicker.

Purusha did not have the time to create all the panels. I can post my entire mail here about the panel quote.

Do not feel attacked by anyone you did the best you could and the fuc$$# panels are not made by your hands. You are just a distributor handling with no profit. Respect!

[Jaicen]

Yep, 100% kudos to Altitude. He's worked very hard for us all, with bitching and moaning as his only reward.

I personally am not totally happy with the panels, and yes they should have been done right, but they are cheaper than anything else I could have got, and look much better than a DIY ever would. If we wind up keeping them as they are, i'll not be terribly unhappy ;)

So, thanks a bunch Alt!!!

[stryd_one]

I think we all need to take a deep breath and try to stay focused.

Is there an echo in here? ere? re? e? ? ;D

it's 100% not alt's fault

Just stating facts but... They were shipped out despite being faulty. That, unfortunately, was Alti's fault. Especially after the fab stuffed up the first time, I think more attention should have been paid to it, and one could have been sent away for a second pair of eyes to check. Whether that detracts from the great effort Alti has put in already depends on how he handles it. All the work he's done so far really amounts to less than nothing to me right now because I don't have a panel or money.

I don't think Altitude should pay himself for anyone's return shipping.

Who then? Look it sucks I know, but the fact is that they shouldn't have been shipped out as they were. That was Alti's mistake and I don't see how it's fair to expect me to pay for it.

I don't mean to be rough, but in the end a mistake was made and someone has to take responsibility, and IMO by now Alti should have done just that. The avoidance of the issue just gives me an intense "I'm about to get ripped off" feeling, because I know that the fab aren't going to pay for Alti's mistake and he's made it clear that he expects us to. I am absolutely sure that alti didn't intend for any of this to go down, but alti you do need to realise that no matter how kind and well-meaning you are, you're handling a buttload of other people's cash, and IMO should do so with a little more respect than you are at the moment.

It's like when you're at the bar and you accidentally knock over someone's drink. It's not like you did anything bad, it was just one of those things, but in the end the right thing to do is buy the guy a fresh beer and accept that you weren't watching where you were going.

There's a certain amount of risk assumed in these group buys

Speak for yourself. If someone intends to take my money they damned well better intend to give me what I paid for or give the money back. In fact Sasha has been openly flambasted on these forums for pointing out that there may be risk when it was agreed that he may be right.

Group buys are cheap because of economy of scale, not because it's risky or for any other reason. Altitude has spent a great deal of time and effort on this group buy and I recognise that and appreciate it - in fact, I was in the middle of writing a reply to this thread when I found out about the latest problems. I was in the midst of praising Alti on handling the hardest of group buys, where something goes wrong and all the pressure is on him to fix it. First time out, when it was the fab's fault, alti handled it like a champion. This time, it's his fault, and he's shirking the blame.

I'm equally frustrated by this concept that because alti is doing this for free, he should be allowed to avoid responsibility for the money he has taken from me. Alti volunteered to do this thing, noone forced him. There was no warning given that Alti reserved the right to take the money and not deliver the goods, or I'd not have joined the order.

Look, if you guys are happy to take the panels as they are, that's great. If you're happy to spend a bit extra and get overlays made up, that's great. I said before that I was open to negotiation, but neither of those options are suitable for me, and I don't like that I'm being made out as an "attacker" because of that.

Ultimately, what I would like is for me to get a proper panel at no extra expense to altitude, but if someone has to cover additional costs, I don't see any logical reason why it should be me. If anyone can come up with one, I'd like to hear it. If you, like I, sympathise with alti's position, then by all means say so, but don't make me out to be an attacker when you do. I just want what I'm entitled to.

Edit: or a bitch or a moaner. I'm getting rather impatient with these accusations. If you think I'm bitching and moaning how about YOU pay for the refund?

Edit: I don't mean this literally, it's just meant to demonstrate that it's easy to accuse someone of bitching when it's not your money you're referring to.

[stevenclements]

Yawn...

;D

lets hope for a satisfactory resolution... and no bad blood

[Altitude]

Ok ppl, let me put things into perspective. First off, I made enough money on this to cover my panel and parts, thats it.  I dont have the 1200$ dollars that it would cost to cover shipping these back here and out again. S1, you dont like the results? send yours back and I will refund your $40 out of my own pocket.  I inspected these for quality and and defects the best I could, the fact the screener took it upon themselves to change the artwork supplied to them is so far out there that I would not have even considered as something to watch for.  I posted a good picture of the panel that was up for a week before the panels were shipped and nobody caught it there either despite looking at it now, it is obvious that there was a problem so please dont make it out like it is a HUGE OBVIOUS error.

The printer has already indicated that they would be fixed and I will be happy to do all the work for ppl that want to ship them back but thats all that I can do

[nebula]

Stay focussed. This isn't a matter of who could do a better job or whether the price was right etc. That can be discussed elsewhere/another time. We have bigger fish to fry.

We paid for a product. Product not received = refund.

Simple.

I think it's entirely unfair to expect someone to pay for return shipping when it's not their fault that they have received a dodgy panel. It's not my fault that it was sent not done right, and I frankly couldn't care less who's fault it is. All I want is either:

A) The agreed upon panel at the agreed upon cost

or

B) No panel at no cost.

Simple.

What's wrong with that?

What's wrong with that is that you miss the big picture.  If the product of a group buy is substandard, well ... caveat emptor. No single person should have to be on the hook for hundreds of dollars in shipping costs, no matter how big their blunder, when they offer a service like this for the good of the community.

"Group buy" means the group is buying from the manufacturer in this instance, not buying from Altitude. He handled your money, but he is not the vendor.

I haven't seen the panel I ordered yet, but even if it looks like a wadded up ball of tin foil, Altitude did his job (which, incidentally, is not to be Q.A. for our panel vendor, which was selected by committee).

[stryd_one]

What's wrong with that is that you miss the big picture.

What "big picture"? I don't see how I'm missing anything. Don't try and make out like I don't get it just because I just don't agree with you. There's a difference.

If the product of a group buy is substandard, well ... caveat emptor.

Caveat emptor implies that we should beware of alti. I don't think that alti would agree with that, either. Alti may be relatively new around here but I still think he's a trustworthy dude.

Also, that starts a bad trend - if I know that any group buy run from these forums carry the possibility of losing all your dough and no recourse will be taken against the seller, then I can only in good conscience warn people against joining any and all group buys. That's not a good trend to start.

No single person should have to be on the hook for hundreds of dollars in shipping costs, no matter how big their blunder, when they offer a service like this for the good of the community.

Why not?

If you and everyone else are cool to bear the cost of altitude's mistake, then I say hooray. But you still haven't presented me with any solid reasoning why I should join you.

The fact that alti did this for the good of the community is not lost on me. I'm not a moron and I'm not an asshole. It disturbs me greatly that he should be left holding responsibility for this disaster, after trying so hard to do us all a favour, and I've spent several hours trying to find a way around it, including skipping a physiotherapy session last night.

But the sad fact is, that whether "alti was doing it for the good of the community" or whether "alti was doing it for additional $5 a panel for his own benefit", the commonality is that "alti was doing it". His motivations are not relevant to his responsibilities.

I think you're letting the fact that you (like I) feel bad for alti's position, cloud your logic.

"Group buy" means the group is buying from the manufacturer in this instance, not buying from Altitude. He handled your money, but he is not the vendor.

He is the vendor, he's the guy I gave my money to, and the guy who would give me my panel.

Altitude .....is not to be Q.A. for our panel vendor

If not him, then who? Someone had to do it.

I said last night in the chat, if he'd said he was going to send them as-is and untested then there would be no problem and nothing done wrong. And I wouldn't have joined the buy in the first place.

...

Ok ppl, let me put things into perspective. First off, I made enough money on this to cover my panel and parts, thats it.

As above, I don't think that's relevant.

I dont have the 1200$ dollars that it would cost to cover shipping these back here and out again.

I gathered as much hehe... But that's exactly why more care should have been taken.

S1, you dont like the results? send yours back and I will refund your $40 out of my own pocket.

So, end result for me is $20 in return-shipping and a few precious hours of my time out of pocket and dragging my crippled ass to the post office and asking the boss for special shift so I can get there during business hours, for a total of absolutely nothing to show for it.... Yeh, that sounds fair! :-\

I can see that you're trying very hard to do the right thing but..... It's not working ;)

I inspected these for quality and and defects the best I could

Well you made an effort and I don't intend to diminish that, but you really should have sent one to Wilba first. Or printed the design onto tracing paper or transparency and laid it on top of the panel at least.

, the fact the screener took it upon themselves to change the artwork supplied to them is so far out there that I would not have even considered as something to watch for.

If they hadn't done exactly that already the first time, I'd agree, but after their first screwup I think that we should have expected anything.

so please dont make it out like it is a HUGE OBVIOUS error.

I don't think I ever made that implication!

The printer has already indicated that they would be fixed and I will be happy to do all the work for ppl that want to ship them back but thats all that I can do

Then I fear you have made a mistake you can't afford to correct. And yet you don't even see fit to apologise. Not good enough mate.

[nebula]

What "big picture"?

Good point. Stupid of me.  Always avoid euphemisms in discussions like this, or risk looking dumb like I just did.

Caveat emptor implies that we should beware of alti.

It does?  I don't believe altitude is the vendor.  Alti is merely the enabler - the helper. (See below)

Also, that starts a bad trend - if I know that any group buy run from these forums carry the possibility of losing all your dough and no recourse will be taken against the seller, then I can only in good conscience warn people against joining any and all group buys. That's not a good trend to start.

I see where you're going with this, but ... what is substandard for some is perfectly adequate for others.  Did Altitude overlook 1 or 2 really bad ones?  I dunno, maybe ... as far as I'm concerned however, I paid very little money for my panel, it's a DIY project, and the "big picture" here is that you end up with a kickass MIDIbox SID V2 regardless of some imperfections on the panel.  For me, it won't affect the sound quality, so I'm totally cool with whatever my panel looks like.  All I cared about in the first place is that the cuts are in the right spots.

Why not?

Because he's a person. He's not a big corporation,  a manufacturer, or even a small business.  He's a MIDIboxer!

If you think Alti did poorly, don't buy from him again. But holding him responsible for hundreds of dollars in shipping means that maybe he won't make his rent. Or afford tires for his car. Or feed his kid. Or pay his credit card bill.

Maybe you don't care, but I do.  If it was that big a deal to me, I'd let it go, get better panels elsewhere, and be out only a few bucks.  Rather than put one individual out by a crippling sum of money. 

Besides: do you realize at this point in time given the number of interested people who "missed" the MB-6582 panel order, that even your imperfect panels are likely worth more right now than what you paid?  As I write this I am considering buying them from you!

I think you're letting the fact that you (like I) feel bad for alti's position, cloud your logic.

I think you're letting your pure logic cloud your human decency.

He is the vendor, he's the guy I gave my money to, and the guy who would give me my panel.

That's akin to blaming your stock broker when your stocks tank.

If not him, then who?

Um.... how about the panel vendor?

Dude, even if my silkscreen looks like I spilled "Liquid Paper" all over the panel and called it "done", I would still rather have the panel now than send it  back again.  I want to move on with this project.  If Altitude had taken the time to canvass every buyer in this forum it would have slowed me down.  And with all due respect, to me, my time is just as valuable as your panel.  So they weren't perfect, but perhaps adequate for most, and Altitude sent the panels out.  I'm glad he did.

[stryd_one]

[SLP]

If you want an idea of how hard it can be for me to get to the post office, ask SLP, who waited for months, and that was when a friend was waiting on me and I made it top priority.

... and I'm still waiting  ;D

nevermind... I've bought a SH-201 now. That'll bridge the time until the ICs arrive ;)

[Wilba]

Someone referred to this thread as stryd_one's "panel rage" and further commented that he did not like stryd_one making this discussion "aggressive". I don't agree stryd_one is being aggressive here, and people who know stryd_one also know he's always the one to keep calm and tries not to offend anyone, so any suggestion that he's doing differently here is plainly wrong.

He is just pointing out the facts which should have been agreed upon without question by everyone, including Altitude and they are:

Altitude is responsible for the bulk order and therefore responsible for what he delivers to you for the money he received.

Altitude was responsible for the quality assurance and checking of the panels before shipping, so any returns or refunds could be easily arranged.

I inspected these for quality and and defects the best I could, the fact the screener took it upon themselves to change the artwork supplied to them is so far out there that I would not have even considered as something to watch for.

Yeah I would never have considered it possible, but since the first panels were screwed up (recall very thick label lines?) and shipped back for cleaning and reprinting, I would be even more cautious and check everything, including the position of every single label. I also would have assembled my MB-6582 to check it all was good. I would have preferred to make everyone wait and refund everyone their money if it wasn't 100% correct.

I posted a good picture of the panel that was up for a week before the panels were shipped and nobody caught it there either despite looking at it now, it is obvious that there was a problem so please dont make it out like it is a HUGE OBVIOUS error.

It was not the group's responsibility to check a picture posted on the forum for artwork errors, and it IS a HUGE OBVIOUS error when you stick the knobs over the holes and see how it looks. Also, you can't check the quality of the paint (or lack thereof) from that picture.

So instead of Altitude accepting the responsibility, apologizing and offering to fix things at no further expense to the bulk buyers (or admitting he can't afford to fix things at no further expense to the bulk buyers and asking us politely to pay for the shipping), he gives brief posts to this thread and proposed solutions that are inadequate, and doesn't address the issues I raised or answers the questions I asked or do as I've asked. I still don't know if I send my panels back that I'm going to get quality silk-screening or just the same hyper-glossy white paint that bleeds into the black text and be patchy with black showing through and maybe fall off just by looking at it too hard.

All of you in the "I don't care if it looks like crap" camp, just stop reading this thread... you have your panel, you've thanked Alt like he's done some incredible service to the MIDIbox community (it's just a bulk order, not rocket science), there is nothing more to see here, move along.

If you're here just to argue against stryd_one's point of view, which can be summarized thus:

I'll tell you what I am right now: I'm a second class citizen around here because I want what I paid for, and because I am unwilling to pay my hard earned cash to cover the mistake of someone who didn't even have the respect to take responsibility and apologise!

then you can start arguing with me too, because I concur with stryd_one on each and every point he has made, including feeling sympathy for Altitude.

[kieran]

.. not to mention it costs more to send back because we're on the other side of the planet!  :P

:D

[ringmod45]

Here are a few ideas I would like to throw around.

I am sure everyone knows someone who knows someone who does silkscreening.

1) Would it be possible to have the file available in this topic for those who have the ability to silkscreen to do their own.

2) maybe someone could do a screen for North America, europe etc.

Looking forward to correcting the issue without prejudice.

Regards,

Ringer

[Wilba]

Artwork in PDFs is available here:

http://www.midibox.org/dokuwiki/wilba_mb_6582

as well as the original FPD files, I've also added some DXF exports of the original FPD files... you'll need AutoCAD to delete the FPD artwork and leave just the holes/cutouts.

Since I published the original FPD files, I've made new ones that incorporate the waveform symbols and added extra labels to the rear panel as seen in the silkscreen artwork... I'll publish those soon (or just ask/nag me for them).

[stevenclements]

Here are a few ideas I would like to throw around.

I am sure everyone knows someone who knows someone who does silkscreening.

1) Would it be possible to have the file available in this topic for those who have the ability to silkscreen to do their own.

2) maybe someone could do a screen for North America, europe etc.

Looking forward to correcting the issue without prejudice.

Regards,

Ringer

Hi Ringer... I'm Steve... Now that I "know" you can you silkscreen a print for me?  :D  Honestly I don't know anyone who silkscreens anything, but this is a good idea me thinks...

[Kartoshka]

peeps, i think it's easily can be done here (academy of art workshops ;)) but i'd like to finish drilling/painting my panel first—to show you the results (maybe anodizing with dye/other interesting techniques as well, and only then the screening part time).

i have to test on MINE before i go with yours.

probably also sending one to great Wilb' so we'll not make any troubles no' mo.

for now, i'm not promising you anything.

if you can find other solutions, go with them.

Kart.

[Doug Wellington]

Honestly I don't know anyone who silkscreens anything, but this is a good idea me thinks...

Hello Steve,

I'm Doug, I do silkscreening.  ;D  (And painting/airbrushing, and machine work, and electronics assembly, and...)

After I'm done with the MB-808 panels, I'll be happy to work on the MB-6582.  I already got a copy of the graphic file.  Unless something else happens here, I'm going to fix my own 6582 panel - when I do that, I'll have a screen that I can use for other people too...

Doug

http://www.analognotes.com

[Kartoshka]

Doug, i'm just very curious: why would you order your panel from alt' if you do it yourself? :-)  ::)

[stevenclements]

Hello Steve,

I'm Doug, I do silkscreening.  ;D  (And painting/airbrushing, and machine work, and electronics assembly, and...)

After I'm done with the MB-808 panels, I'll be happy to work on the MB-6582.  I already got a copy of the graphic file.  Unless something else happens here, I'm going to fix my own 6582 panel - when I do that, I'll have a screen that I can use for other people too...

Doug

http://www.analognotes.com

Hi Doug :D pleeeeasure to meet you.

YOU rock don't you know?

Steve

[Doug Wellington]

Doug, i'm just very curious: why would you order your panel from alt' if you do it yourself?

1) I like to support the DIY community

2) If I don't contract for the whole run, it's easier to join a group buy for a single panel

3) I primarily work with .125" thick metal for my front panels

I use EAGLE...does that mean I should lay out all my own circuit boards too?

;)

Doug

http://www.analognotes.com

[Wild_Weasel]

hi folks!

Received my panels yesterday.

They look gorgeous and I could not ask for more concerning the cost an the ease of ordering.

Thanks a lot.

Kind regards

Michael

[KnowGood]

I use EAGLE...does that mean I should lay out all my own circuit boards too?

Touché

[robert lowell]

i just took mine out again to give them a twice over.  my screen print seems decent enough.  the spacing is a problem but i'm satisfied.

[malekko]

I dont expect the screening to last very long...i used packing tape to clamp my faceplate to the PCB for the JBwelding and tape took off some of the screening  :(

[Kartoshka]

got the 3mm cnc drill bit! :-) and solidpart files.

next step is solidcam and actual cutting.

after that, screening.

and don't be upset about lifting off the type—solution exists, just takes time.