Gloss Red and Gloss Black MB-6582 panel sets back in stock : )

[julianf]

Note this thread was titled -

"Would it be wrong for me to offer CNC engraved panels for the  MB-6582 project?"

Photos have been inserted below -

Gloss MB6582 panel sets (red or black) - £75

Matte MB6582 panel sets (black) - £75

Matte x0xb0x panel sets - £75

All sets include both top and rear plates.

Postage charged at cost price -

UK - £2.14 + 75p (1st class recorded - maximum compensation £39)

UK - £5.40 (fully insured / next day)

EU - £2.99 + £4.50 (airmail + tracking / insurance)

ROW - £5.31 + £4.50 (airmail + tracking / insurance)

EDIT - the postage costs are not quite right any more, as the postal company has increased the charges. remember though that i only ever charge cost price for shipping, and packing is always free : )

(2 sets will cost slightly more to post, but nowhere near double the cost)

Payment by bank in sterling or euro, google checkout in any other currency @ 4.4%.

Credit card orders must be tracked & insured. Optional / at buyers risk otherwise.

Original thread follows below -

---

I have been sorting out stuff here, and came across the box where id stored the SIDs whilst waiting for the MB-6582 board to be completed (yep, id forgotten all about the project for about a year!)

...anyway, ive just spent the last number of hours reading through the forum there are a number of people getting high priced panels from shaeffer etc.

I dont know if i should offer panels for this project?

Im not well known here (although am on sdiy/ah/etc), and, besides, havent posted for years anyhow.

I currently have spare time on the cnc machine, and could beat shaeffer / FPE's price by about 40%.

...but im aware that there are also stalled group buy projects, and, for a number of reasons, itlld be wrong to take interest away from them.

However, in the meen time, people are wanting, and paying for panels elsewhere.

Can anyone advise as to the general feeling?  I know, ultimatly, its up to the buyer, but i dont want to get a bad rep when ive only just found my way back here!

Edited May 10, 2010 by julianf

[Smithy]

The more people on here making CNC panels the better imo!

I mean theres no need to feel guilty if others are planning on making them in the future,

for instance Doug is living in the U.S and you're living in the UK.

That can help with shipping cost and times for people living in Europe.

it would just be like having the choice of buying from Smash TV or Mike's Midi Shop.

I cannot see how something this beneficial to the community could be scorned at.  ;)

[Wilba]

My general feeling is... if people have a CNC machine (aka. lucky bastards) are willing to make panels for other MIDIbox builders, I am 100% for it... so long as their offers don't interfere with a currently run bulk order etc. I'm not sure but I think Doug Wellington may be approaching readiness to supply panels but someone like you offering a small quantity for approximately the same price (or higher) is not going to affect his "bulk order".... i.e. I don't think he's going to be overstocked with materials or make a loss etc.

One other thing, you should demonstrate what you can make, with good hi-res photos. If you can do (paint filled?) engraving like Schaeffer/FPE then show it... if you can source 1.5mm thick black anodized aluminium... etc. Paint filled isn't that important, I'm sure people can DIY that if you're beating Schaeffer/FPE on price.

Can you also do panels 17"-19" wide? ;)

Can you do blind threaded M3 holes on the reverse side?? ;)

[ssp]

http://www.thebeast.co.uk/cnc/

[julianf]

This is a good example of capabilities, as it shows three sepperate techniques -

The engraving is obviously one of them.

The precision milling of the square button holes could be noted.  This is a panel where the cuts are visable, and need to be clean.

The area arround the keys is done with an end mill, cutting very shallow.  Although im reluctant to do this on other panels, it demonstrates capability.

What this panel does not show is infill use, for two reasons - firstly, the silver against gloss black looks good.  The bolts are stainless, the leds white, and another 'colour' would have visually complicated things, and, secondly, because of the technique used on the 'keys'.  Infill will not hold in large areas like that on objects that are going to have continued physical contact.

But there are other examples in the link in my sig with infill use.

I can easily do 19" panels up to 5u in height.  I can actually go up to 700mm x 300mm (or even larger if you dont want engraving right up to the edge) but theyre hassle to clamp properly.

Although blinds would be possible in thicker panels, but im reluctant to offer them, as theyre a fair bit of hassle.  The rear-side code needs to be prepared, the pannel needs to be flipped (taking care to protect the top side from the clamping), the holes then need to be milled, and then id have to tap them by hand.  I hate doing things by hand : )

For the mb6582 in a pactec enclosure i wouldnt recommend anyone cut blinds in the rear, because youre only dealing with 1.5mm. 

[Twin-X]

On your website you have this info  "The Beast UK Ltd. is a United Kingdom Limited Company - Company Number 6615606"

Does it mean that people who are not from Europe do not have to pay VAT for the panels you make?

For the mb6582 in a pactec enclosure i wouldnt recommend anyone cut blinds in the rear, because youre only dealing with 1.5mm.

Wilba is not reffering to the mb6582. It was just in general ;)

[julianf]

The short answer is, unfortunatly, no.

The longer answer -

There is a distinction between being a registered company, and being VAT registered.  One does not pre-suppose the other.

I forgett the exact figures, but below a certain level of turnover a company does not have to be VAT registered, then there is a band where it it optional, and then over this band is is compulsory.

Not being VAT registered meens that i (the company) have to pay VAT on all goods purchased (so the tax is paid at that point) and it is not added on again at point of sale.  But then this paid tax can not be refunded for export orders either.

However....

Britain has very low import thresholds (the price of a good before customs duties are paid), and im aware that they are a lot more 'sensible' in other regions.  Because of this, I suspect the majority of panels going to the majority of regions are without customs fees.

[Twin-X]

Thats nice. I cannot start a company as i have to be vat registered to start one in the Netherlands. So it is extremly difficult for me to buy supplies (anodized panels etc) as the only sell to companies and not to simple people like me :(

Anyway good luck on selling. However you're not the only one that is offering ;)

[julianf]

Thats nice. I cannot start a company as i have to be vat registered to start one in the Netherlands.

Over here there's still paperwork for the other taxes, but just not for sales tax.  A company, as opposed to "trading-as", has to have a charted accountant (rather than just a book keeper), a company number, buisiness bank accounts, etc. etc.  So its only the VAT issue that is initially escaped!

Anyway good luck on selling. However you're not the only one that is offering ;)

To confirm -

Im *not* looking to compete with existing group buys.  Esp. in Doug's case, that would be exceedingly poor taste, but, in addition, i would never be able to compete financially with a group-buy based on silk screening costs.

Both the beauty and the peril of engraving, as opposed to silk screening, is that the costs for engraving are (pretty much) the same for 1-off as they are for 10-off (assuming stock metal)

This makes it way cheaper for small quantities / 1-offs, etc. but there comes a point where the setup costs of the silk screen are outweighed by the speed at which multiple panels can be printed.

Engraving gives a different finish to screening.  Its more durable, but more difficult to do colours, and, as mentioned, virtually impossible to do 'blocks' of colour on control surfaces.  Line widths can be way lower than a silk screener would ever be able to manage, esp. using diamond drag techniques. (although it should be noted that i dont presonally like the visual appearence of diamond line work on control panels)

But, yes, in short, theyre different creatures, with different end results, each with their own pro's and con's : )

The reason i made the first post was simply because i was aware of builders buying in engraved panels, and considered that it may be good to give an alternative to this, rather than an alternative to the screened group buys already organised.

[Dave_Wheeler]

Hi Julianf,

Great work :-)

Have you calculated appox costs based on Wilba's original layouts ??

Thanks

Dave

[julianf]

The cost will be about GBP 68 for the set.  This is inclusive of all european taxes. 

As ive allready said, a silk screened run would work out cheaper, but ordering from shaeffer would be considerably more, esp when you consider that that the numbers spit out by FPD are subject to 19% tax (at least in the EU - i dont know about sales taxes in the states?)

Indeed, i think my *inclusive* price is actually cheaper than shaeffers *exclusive* price, but ill leave someone to confirm this?

Anyway, there are some things to note -

• I would not want to infill panels in more than one colour (wilba's design has both red and white - i cant meet the above price for dual color designs)
  
• I can supply on 1.5mm in different colours, whilst, i think, shaeffer can only do 2mm in other colours - which isnt ideal for the pactec cases (this assumes at least 5 people wanting the same colour though)
  
• Price is just an estimate - i have a panel on the machine at the moment to confirm
  

Somthing else i have realised, after reading posts by Doug -

Doug's group buy is up to somthing like 200 units.  He has mentioned in a couple of places that he's bought a mill to do the panels.

I know, from my own experiance, that milling 200 units is going to take, well, forever.  Im sure people will find this hard to believe, but the panels for the x0xb0x above take about 10 hours of machine time per set.  Even if half this time can be saved through silk screening, a 200 unit run is still going to take 1000hrs of machine time (at least of the rate on my machine)

1000hrs @ 8hrs per day is - 125 days, or about 4.5 months.  Even at double the 2mm/s feedrate that i run at, thats still over 2months of continual production.

What im trying to say is that, i think i can offer out a few engraved sets and not dent any group buys in progress!

[ssp]

i have got a couple of things im building at the moment, one of which i wouldnt mind having an aluminium faceplate with the engraving and paint infills. nothing massive two rectangle holes in the plate with a load of marks for some holes for leds.

i can give you any format of drawing you require all with full annotations.

if this is possible i will try and get the face drawn up this week and pass the drawing to you, i would want it in the black adonised aluminium

[julianf]

[snip]...if this is possible i will try and get the face drawn up this week and pass the drawing to you, i would want it in the black adonised aluminium

entirely possible.  indeed, if its work for one of the pac-tec cases, i have the metal work in stock.

when you are reddy, drop me a direct mail with the full details...

(the address is on picture on the website)

[Dave_Wheeler]

Thanks Julianf

Be very keen to see the panel once it comes off the machine, all those holes are going to take some time !!

Price seems good, much better than Schaefer but like you say only one colour fill (or natural I guess)

Cheers

Dave

[ssp]

no this isnt anything for the 6582 its something different the panel will be 3x9 inches

[julianf]

Be very keen to see the panel once it comes off the machine, all those holes are going to take some time !!

Ill take another photo tommorow (ie 15th aug, gmt) and update the link, as, at time of writing, its dark outside, and my camera isnt much good without natural light. 

(if you see a background of wood or slate, its the new photo, if its paper, its the old one)

The photo ive just taken (ie the paper background one) looks a bit blurry, but the line width is the same as the x0xb0x in the first photo.

You can see that the milled cut is nice and clean.

I chose not to cut the lines sepperating the various sections - in wilba's design this is a red line, but i intend to leave this one natural to match the x0xb0x panels, and i think a silver line might be a bit 'heavy'.

I have also milled fixing holes in the corners, for the pactec enclosure, to aleviate the (i assume) epoxy resin issues.  Ill fit the same A4 stainless bolts, again, to match the x0xb0x above.

Before i cut the rear panel, can someone tell me -

The design has a fan in the rear.  I hate fans.  Their whine drives me mad...  Not to mention clogging evreything with dust.

What about if i was to cut somthing like this -

in the rear, but not actually fit a fan?  Would there be enough convection currents etc. for passive cooling?

Or even a matrix of holes, rather like the led matrix on the top panel?

I havent even built the electronics yet, hence not knowing how hot they get at all!

[Matrix12x]

that really looks great.

I was actually going to  monitor temperatures on my unit.

[Futureman]

Hey Julian!

Good to see you made it over here from no-future.

Your panel looks very nice!

I can prob answer your fan questions.. you can get by without it.. A bit of convection is would suffice.

The Sids get slightly warm, but thats about it..

Regards

Mike

[julianf]

Thanks for that Mike,

Ive been muttering about building a midibox device for a long time, so its about time i got on with it!

Wilba's design had a single large cut-out for the fan, but maybee if i do a cutout like the one on the front of my cnc controler in the photo above, then it'll be visually nice regardless of if a fan is fitted or not?

(on the cnc controller, thats actually just an inlet - the fan is mounted on the rear)

If i do a matrix of holes, like the LED matrix, thatlld look nice, but wouldnt work so well for mounting a fan to later.

[julianf]

I have just updated the file on the server to a better photo (a browser refresh may be needed if you are still seeing the photo with the black paper in the background)

Here the original, and another shot too -

Note that -

• I havent cut the sepperating lines that are in the original design.  These are possible, but i thought they would make too much of an impact if left in silver
  
• I have cut the 4 corner mounting holes
  
• This panel is in a high gloss finish (you can see the clouds in the 2nd shot, and part of a structure in the first!) - gloss isnt availible in many colours in the 1.5mm
  
• Satin is availible too (my own x0xb0x [not the unit on my website] is in satin)
  

So... @ GBP £68 per set (set = front and rear) would anyone be interested?

[lucem]

Why not, I'd need to replace my shabby panel anyway :)

[nILS]

Purty!

[Matrix12x]

That looks great, much better that my home made panel.  :)

I would be interested. What do you think shipping to NY, USA might be in the ball park of?

[Tamiflu]

Julian,

I'd like a set of your panels if there's enough interest.

Do you have any plans to produce the panel for the MB-SEQ ?

I would be interested in one of those too, if Wilba is happy with that.

Gary

[julianf]

I would be interested. What do you think shipping to NY, USA might be in the ball park of?

Sorry, havent worked it out yet, but i always ship at cost.

The cheapest option will be with Royal Mail - here's a link to the pricing -

http://www.royalmail.com/portal/rm/jump1?catId=400023&mediaId=400033

The airmail alone is dead cheap, but the irritating catch is that credit card orders need to be signed for etc. which adds to the cost, not to mention the credit card fees themselves : (

Julian,

I'd like a set of your panels if there's enough interest.

Do you have any plans to produce the panel for the MB-SEQ ?

I would be interested in one of those too, if Wilba is happy with that.

Gary

Hi Garry,

I can cut 1-offs too, but the panel above is a fair bit of work, which is why i want a (allbeit small) MOQ at the stated price.

I can, and do, cut 1-offs all the time.